Poster by Cody, www.notorch.blogspot.com

According to the Tibetan Centre for Human Rights and Democracy (TCHRD), since the beginning of March this year, at least 324 Tibetans were arrested and detained by Chinese authorities, however the TCHRD believes the actual number is around 2300. Most recently, reports have also been received of the torture of eight Tibetan monks in the custody of Chinese authorities. One of the monks, who was released after several days in detention, was covered in bruises from the severe beatings he had undergone (FORUM-ASIA).

Update: I received links to photos provided by the TCHRD:

http://www.tchrd.org/ngaba2_16_march_2008/   
http://www.tchrd.org/ngaba_16_march_2008/
http://www.tchrd.org/lanzhou/
http://www.tchrd.org/labrang/
http://www.tchrd.org/golog/

For video: http://www.tchrd.org/protest_video/

Police in Kuala Lumpur are in cohorts with the Chinese authorities. They are already issuing stern warnings against those who want to protest against the torch relay today:

 

From the PEOPLE’s PAPER:

Internal Security and Public Order Director Commissioner Datuk Hussin Ismail said all the necessary precautions have been taken to ensure the 16.5km torch relay ran smoothly. He said there were indications of people wanting to disrupt the run.

“We are in the midst of collecting the necessary information to ascertain whether these people are from outside or within the country. So far we have not detected anything but anyone who tries to disrupt the run will be severely dealt with”.

Chinese nationals have started protesting all over the world too, speaking against the media for bias reporting. They have shown evidence of Tibetans being violent. ‘Who is violent now?’ the photos begged an answer. Yet those on the Tibetan side have more photos to prove “Who was actually violent”. At the end, will this just be another war of photos?

To all this, I say, ‘charge them (those Tibetans violent) in court then, and prove that they were violent’.

Or else, human rights activists must never lose sight that violence has indeed occurred in Tibet, blood has spilled and the abusers must be accountable for it. 

 

 

 

 

284 responses »

  1. mahahathir says:

    Tibet belongs to China. With the Qinghai-Tibet Railroad, Lahsa is now accessible from China.

    Tibet is now a prosperous province with the people living in a comfortable life.

    The Dalai Lama is a nice man but should confine his sacred job as the highest monk of Tibet and should not get involved in the running of the Province.

  2. tibet boy says:

    The dissidents of Tibet are only tools used by the West to sabotage a rising China who is fast becoming an economic power.

    If the dissidents really care for their Province, they should participate in the Beijing Olympics winning goals for their country, otherwise they are just nuisance to China. What have they contributed to Tibet but creating troubles only?

    Pakistan Beware, They Are Cornering China

  3. tibet boy says:

    Tibet should be proud of being part of China. The Qinghai-Tibet railroad is now a world icon of historical achievement.

    Train to Lhasa

  4. Scott Thong says:

    I have a pertinent question…

    What if Thailand had sent its army and tanks into Malaysia and conquered the entire Peninsula?

    And then what if Bangkok were to host the 2020 Olympic Games?

    Would Malaysians be all smiley and happy-happy about the Olympic Torch relay while our country remained occupied as a ‘rightful province of historic Greater Siam’?

    Would our neighbours keep officially silent about the gradual replacement of Malaysian multi-culture with Thai customs and norms, just to stay on the good side of the Thai economic giant?

    Would our mainstream media newspapers only print letters that bash the West for daring to criticize and politicize the Thailand Games?

    Heck, what if instead of China Olympics and Tibetan protestors, they were having Israel Olympics and Palestinian protestors? Susan and you guys, do you think that our politicians would call for public restraint, or public protests?

    (If you want a hint, just look at the recent hoo-hah over two Israeli players in an English football team almost being denied entry to our tolerant nation.)

    I looked at my nation in the mirror, and saw only hypocrisy.

  5. amigo says:

    This Nancy Pelosi, House Speaker of US Congress is a whimp just like Abdullah.

    She is a real shame to all the American people!

    She has no guts to impeach George Bush who has invaded Iraq illegally, even the American people want to impeach G Bush desperately.

    This Nancy was one of the most corrupt US politicians who is now championing this Tibet cause to divert her cowardice and blatant corruptions.

    Peace Groups Challenge Congress to End the War

  6. With the passing Olympic torch
    Let there be no land to scorch
    Only more real peace to source
    Plenty of goodwill as resource

    (C) Samuel Goh Kim Eng – 210408
    http://MotivationInMotion.blogspot.com
    http://msi.Rocky101.com
    Mon. 21st April 2008.

  7. Anonymous says:

    Why didn’t the Japanese ‘touch’ Thailand but Malaysia during the Japanese occupation in World War 2? Just ponder this!

    Aiya! Why don’t you look at Sabah, Sarawak and the Peninsula? These things are happening blatantly at our back doors/ yards and what could the Malaysian people do about it?

    Leave the Tibet issue to the Chinese people and concentrate our own problems.

    Very soon Malaysia will be part of province of Indonesia, Thailand and Indonesia- for real.

  8. kittykat46 says:

    The Tibetans are a shrinking minority in the only place in the world they can call home.

    Their language, their culture and their economic livelihood are slowly being squeezed out.

    For the Tibetans, there is no recourse to the ballot box or any open media for the Tibetans.
    Their so-called “representatives” in the National People’s Congress are just ball-carriers.

    So what did the Tibetans end up doing in face of all this marginalisation ?
    They took to the streets in protest.
    And the protests were crushed by weapons of war – tanks, armoured personnel carriers, machine guns.
    Yes, some Tibetans responded with violence of their own. Some innocent Chinese residents were injured, some may have been killed.

    But it doesn’t change the inherent injustice of the situation the Tibetans face.

    Malaysians of Chinese descent, and I am one, often complaint loudly of the injustice and marginalisation we face in the country of our birth. On March 8, we were able (thankfully) to register that dissatisfaction through a vote.

    Why is it so difficult for us to have a sense of sympathy for another minority people who are also facing persecution in the land of their birth ?

  9. I think the Chinese should not invite the French President to the Game’s opening. The games will still go on without him I will never buy any more French products from now on-you think you can still bully the Chinese. You must not forget how you left Vietnam like the Americans.

  10. Anonymous says:

    to scott thong,

    should then the red indian in US ask for indepence and kick all the white, black, latin, chinese, korean and all other pendatang’s ass out of red indian soil?

    should sabah and sarawak ask for independence???
    should orang asli ask malay, chinese, indian and etc get out from penisula???
    what say you???

  11. oster says:

    Arguments used by anti-Tibet people:

    a) This issue is being used by the West.

    -So? It doesn’t change the fact that Tibetans cannot vote for their future. If the Malaysian government did the same thing to you, you would complain.

    b) Tibet belongs to China

    -That is a decision to be made by Tibetans, not you, not China, not the US, not the UN, not anybody else

    c) China made Tibet prosporous

    -This is analogous to the “mission to civilize” line of thought Western imperialists took, that Asians wouldn’t rise unless they came and helped them along. In effect, people who say this are saying that Tibet wouldn’t have made it anywhere unless the Chinese came in. Isn’t that comparing China to Western imperialists of old?

    d) Should Sabah and Sarawak then ask for independence?

    -The comparison is moot, since inevitably it is up to Sabahans and Sarawakians themselves who should decide. This argument is trying to say that if Tibet is given independence, so should Sabah and Sarawak.

    Why? Let Tibetans decide on Tibet, and Sabahans and Sarawakians decide on Sabah and Sarawak.

    The core of this argument is still the fact that Tibetans have no right to self-determination.

    cheers

  12. oster says:

    addendum:

    I especially detest the peoples who seek to frame this as a Western conspiracy against China.

    Stop distracting everyone from the main issue.

    The main issue is the fact that Tibetans cannot vote their future!

    It doesn’t matter whether there is some conspiracy against China, this is not a West versus China issue. This is an issue about the lack of Tibetans’ right to self-determination.

    And the West is not one giant blob that is united and thinks alike.

    cheers

  13. Facial says:

    India has been supporting the independence of Tibet and habor the evil supports of Tibetan movement in India.

    Hi since Indians practise human right , I suggest Kapal from Malaysia please advise your country men in India to fight for their rights and independence for a Sikh State.

    Going forward the other races such as Khasmir and Indian Muslims should also start to ask their rights from these low-brow.

    China may be willing to help.

  14. jtduitirt says:

    Has China followed Malaysia’s example and enforced the NEP on the Tibetans? If yes, I can sympathize with the protesters against the torch relay. If no, then all those protestors should be arrested and punished.

  15. oster says:

    addendum:

    More arguments that are anti-Tibet

    e) Why don’t you go fight another human rights’ abuse that is worse elsewhere like Iraq?

    -Well there are too many human rights abuses going on for every individual to concentrate on all of it, right? Just because someone chooses to focus on Tibet doesn’t mean he/she does not care about other human rights abuses, no?

    @jtduitirt,

    Violent protests should not be condoned, but peaceful ones are perfectly legitimate.

    And it’s not just a case of having an NEP in China, but the very fact that elections are faux and Tibet cannot vote on their future, much less propose a referendum.

    cheers

  16. Ling says:

    Been in USA for more than 15 years now and yes Western media is biased towards China than and now too. Anything that Chinese goverment does is propanganda. Anything that seems patriotic is called nationalism by the Western media. If the protest is being held by the western country it will be called patriotic. So, read all these news with a grain of salt because the western is that biased when reporting about China.

  17. oster says:

    More arguments pro-Tibet:

    f) The Western media is biased against China

    -Well first of all, define the empirical method in which you have come to this conclusion. What sample size did you sue, and which media outlets did you examine? Does your sample contain enough sources so as to be representative of the entire media spectrum?

    -Also, regardless of whether the Western media is biased or not, it still does not change the fact that Tibetans cannot vote their future.

    @Ling,

    You say the Western media uses the term “nationalism”. I don’t exactly see that as biased, since nationalism is not a dirty word.

    Furthermore, that is a logical fallacy called “hasty generalisations”.

    cheers

  18. KShan says:

    One needs to be able to read and understand Chinese language to know how biase western media towards China on many issues. What “empirical method” jargoon are you talking about? It simply doesn’t help in stopping people like me to realize western media like CNN, BBC didn’t report the true picture on purpose.

  19. olympic boy says:

    Well! It’s a universal fact now that Tibet is part of China for over six hundred years. So stop interfering the state of affairs of China.

    What if China also interferes the internal affairs of other nations?

    Those who are interfering now are nothing but outright cowards who think they can blackmail the 2008 Beijing Olympics which is coming soon!

    Beijing is the host of Olympic events prove that the people of the world unanimously approve China as a respectable nation.

    Hey! Let’s be gentleman! If you want to show your disapproval on this issue, show it during the Olympic game! Beat the Chinese flat and oblong if you have the skills/ talents.

    Else just let China be the world champion and rule Tibet.

    Won’t it better to let the World Champions rule Tibet rather than a half-past six monk?

    Looking at the sorry situation in Malaysia which is ruled by a half-past six whimp, there is no future for the Malaysians. Won’t it Malaysia be a better nation if it’s ruled by an efficient world champion nation than an obsolete BNputra party which is conducive to the deserts?

    So look at the blanks in the eyes before trying to be a stupid hero/heroine.

  20. Reader says:

    I disagree with Scott Thong and Kittykat.

    Scott’s assertion is just hypothetical and as his hypothesis goes, it is a joke. He stretches the logic too far. The whole issue is not one of logic but of power and control. Of West versus East, and Tibet is but an excuse, a pawn of Western governments. Really, if you wish to use the same logic and/or hypotheis, the Whites whould get out of North and South America, Australasia, Africa, and other parts of the world. Surely you are not so naive as not to see through the intent of the Western governments?

    As for votes, just accept the fact the China is not yet a democracy as she is not a Communist country anymore, except in name. Given time, I am certain they are on the road to democracy. But not accoding to the West’s interest and timetable. And this is not what the West wishes. They do not want China in their Club, for that if China plays the same game, the Western governments are afraid of China winning.

    And if you really follow the History channel on Astro, you will be horrified at the extent of exploitation and cheating of the Chinese people by the West including Japan, since the 1800s. Go and check up the historical facts. You wll be shocked. The governments of the West have never been partial to China except to see it as a potential threat and to undermine whenever there is an opportunity.

    Did you know that since the Yuan and Ming dynasty, Tibet was part of China with an administrator, or in modern terms, a governor, appointed and reporting to Beijing? In the history books, little has been mentioned of Tibet as an independent country.

    Furthermore, where are the trappings of Tibet as an independent country? Did it have an army at least like the Vietnamese or even the Vatican? No, sorry. The most you can say about it, is, it was or is merely a religious retreat; a large monastery in Lhasa or a series of monasteries spread out over a large expanse of no-man’s land; Much like the Benedictan or Franciscan monks. Tibet has never fought for its independence in its history.

    So, rest assure China has a stronger claim to Tibet than those bastards Western government claims to North America or South America, or even Australia and New Zealand.

  21. Pro China says:

    So, rest assure China has a stronger claim to Tibet than those bastards Western government claims to North America or South America, or even Australia and New Zealand.

  22. oster says:

    @KShan

    Scientists or sociologists don’t claim something is true just because they “feel” it’s true. You take what articles you read in CNN and BBC and then go on to claim that there is a Western bias, without first defining what constitutes bias and measuring it and then decide that your simple conclusion on what few articles you see in CNN or the BBC is enough to indict the whole “Western media”.

    That’s the logical fallacy of “hasty generalisations”. If you don’t understand what “empirical” means, google it.

    @olympic boy

    Nations are artificial concepts and there is nothing that says we cannot comment on problems in other nations. For example, when humans were being brutally killed in the Rwandan genocide, do you think we should’ve just considered it an internal matter and let our fellow humans slaughter each other?

    And the status of Tibet is not a China internal matter. Tibetans should decide the status of Tibet, not a few politicians in Beijing.

    Beijing hosting the Olympics is not proof that “the people of the world unanimously approve China as a respectable nation”. It’s proof that the few people who were entitled to vote on the IOC’s decision in the host selection thought that China was a suitable nation to host the games.

    You say “Won’t it Malaysia be a better nation if it’s ruled by an efficient world champion nation than an obsolete BNputra party which is conducive to the deserts?” If the Malaysians agree with you, then one day they will vote BN out.

    But whether the Tibetans want independence or autnonomy or to remain in China, they cannot vote for that decision.

    Tibet’s future is for Tibetans to decide, not you, not China, not the US, not the UN, not NATO, not anybody else

    Give them the right to vote in a free and fair referendum.

    cheers

  23. Umno boy says:

    I don’t mind to be a Muslim/ Umnoputra praying 100 times a day like the monks in Tibet and food/ drinks/money/ golden bars would fall from the sky.

    No wonder Malaysians/ Tibetans are all dying of hunger/ thirst.

  24. reminds me that korea and taiwan should be part of japan as well! what happen if japan is not in axis power but allied against germany, so can i say korea and taiwan should belong to japan then!

  25. oster says:

    Look, the reason why I’m so passionate about this is because the constant shouts of “Western media bias” simply reminds me of how UMNO works. Remember back in 1998 when TDM was doing his rounds against the “Western media bias”? It served to distract the attention of everyone from the real problems in Malaysia.

    Many people are doing the same, serving to distract our attention from the fact that Tibet has no recourse to self-determination.

    Also, the fact that so many are willing to forgive what the CCP does when they would’ve gotten right pissed off if BN did the same thing just riles me.

    cheers

  26. old asli says:

    Why don’t you tell the Americans to go back to Europe and let the Red Indians rule the country? And the Australians to UK?

    You are nothing but double standard!

    Why don’t you go back to the bushes and leave the fishes alone?

    Why don’t you join your ancestors wherever they are and let the orang Asli decide their fate?

  27. Reader says:

    I disagree with Scott Thong and Kittykat.

    Scott’s assertion is just hypothetical and as his hypothesis goes, it is a joke. He stretches the logic too far. The whole issue is not one of logic but of power and control. Of West versus East, and Tibet is but an excuse, a pawn. Really, if you wish to use logic, the Whites whould get out of North and South America, Australasia, Africa, and other parts of the world. Surely you are not so naive as not to see through the intent of the Western governments?

    Did you know that since the Yuan (1300s) and Ming (1400s) dynasty eras, Tibet was part of China with an administrator, or in modern terms, a governor, appointed and reporting to Beijing? Moreover, little if any, has ever been mentioned in history of Tibet as an independent country. Not even back to the times of the Tang dynasty era.

    Independence requires the trappings of State. Did Tibet have an army the Vietnamese or even the Vatican? No, sorry. The most you can say about it, is, it was or is merely a religious retreat; a large monastery in Lhasa or a series of monasteries spread out over a large expanse of no-man’s land; Much like the Benedictan or Franciscan monks. Tibet has never fought for its independence in its history.

    As for votes, just accept the fact the China is not yet a democracy as she is not a Communist country anymore, except in name. Given time, I am certain they are on the road to democracy. But not accoding to the West’s interest and timetable.

    And if you really follow the History channel on Astro, you will be horrified at the extent of exploitation and cheating of the Chinese people by the West including Japan since the 1800s. Go and check up the historical facts. You wll be shocked. The governments of the West have never been partial to China except to see it as a potential threat and to undermine whenever there is an opportunity.

    So, rest assure China has a stronger claim to Tibet than those Western government claims to North America or South America, or even Australia and New Zealand.

  28. Reader says:

    And Oster too!

  29. Sentinel says:

    Oster, I think you are a paid CIA agent. Most likely a journalist.

  30. Sam says:

    The title for this post is “Let the Olympic torch pass, but remember the violence against Tibetans”

    ok…the first part “Let the Olympic torch pass”…i think no one will object on this…

    2nd part…”but remember the violence against Tibetans”….hmm…let talks bout who is doing violence to the Tibetans.

    For the blogger, please goes through http://www.anti-cnn.com….

    1.) If you are able to explain why CNN…BBC…etc etc etc western media making this kind of mistake….and up to this moment…no apologize from them for putting some wrong information on their news?

    2.) If CHINA is using vilence to tibetans, ermm hmmm….can i know what is the “ways” that use by U.S at IRAQ?….oo…if not mistaken…is missile, bomb and bullet…right?
    well….then i don understand….why all these western media so concern about CHINA using “violence” which is STICK + BULLET (maybe~~…)….but they can let-go~~…forgive~~….blind that US is using massive destructive weapon???

    ooo…well….the only i can think is….U.S think that they are superior…they go other country in 20th century is to “SAVE” the country…but not “INVASION”….

    oo…then TIBET which parts of CHINA since decades is consider “INVASION” huh….

  31. Sentinel says:

    Bhutan did not have any democracy until this year.

    India annexed Sikkim in the 70s, and took possession of Assam, Manipura and other lands bordering Burma, without their consent.

    Where’s the protest and condemnation? What democracy?

    Assamese and people in Manipura have been fighting for independence violently for many years and he Indian government have been brutal in their suppression.

    Where’s your righteous stand now, Mr Oster?

    I agree with Sentinel. I think you are a paid CIA agent; probably an Indian Malaysian journalist.

  32. oster says:

    @Sentinel

    I wish I get paid for thinking with reason. But I don’t.

    Have you heard of ad hominem argumentum? Here’s a good link about it: http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/person.html

    Read it and reflect on your arguments.

    @Reader

    Actually, Tibet does have substantial written history about Tibetan independent kingdoms. And regardless of China’s historical hegemony over Tibet in the past, is that what Tibetans want today? Why not let them vote their opinions and express themselves freely so we can know?

    Furthermore, your arguments that since Tibet wasn’t equipped as a nation in a modern sense in the past, it wouldn’t be today is again, the “mission to civilize” line of thought. You assume that Tibet would not evolve into a modern state if China never came in.

    Bhutan is an example of a state that mirrors Tibet (same religious structure too). I don’t see too many problems there. They’re gonna have their first elections. And google “countries without standing armies” and you’ll find that an army is not a necessary “trappings of State”.

    Your argument that Tibet has never fought for its independence in the past to invalidate present efforts is fallacious, as certainly, not everything we do requires precedents.

    Your argument that China is not yet a democracy is one I accept. But that is exactly why I try to stimulate intellectual debates on the issue, instead of skirting around by talking about powerplays. Furthermore, to make CHina a democracy requires proactive action. You think the BN would’ve lost their 2/3s majority if we just accepted it?

    Your argument about Western imperialist discrimination I agree with. I know history, I’m obsessed with it. I know the events that culminated with the Boxer’s Rebellion and I know the events that happened after.

    But none of this discrimination gives China any right to do the same. I’m not gonna call for the ban of BN politician’s blogs just because they once tried to ban other blogs because that would be hypocritical. To do precisely the same things done upon you is hypocritical, no?

    Furthermore, the fact that you can see atrocities done by the West on China on an American channel shows that at least that there is awareness in the West about the issues. They can speak of grievances. That is what I hope for Tibet. And I hope arguments about Western conspiracy theories or gut judgments of Western media outlets do not distract from this.

    Your final paragraph about China having a stronger claim than the West over Tibet is moot, as the West hasn’t claimed Tibet.

    And regardless of China’s claim, Tibet’s future is for Tibetans to decide, not you, not China, not the US, not the UN, not NATO, not anybody else

    @Sam

    I believe many American media outlets called the invasion or Iraq an “invasion”.

    Don’t generalise the West. Generalisations mislead.

    cheers

  33. oster says:

    @Sentinel

    And what makes you think I’ve never spoken out about Sikkim? Or Assam? Or Burmese control of minority spaces? You think everything I’ve written here is all I’ve written in my entire life?

    The post is about Tibet, so I speak about Tibet. It doesn’t mean other issues don’t concern me. Nor does it mean I have the time to concentrate on every single issue. I am human.

    I agree with Sentinel. I think you are a paid CIA agent; probably an Indian Malaysian journalist.

    Of course you agree with Sentinel, considering your name’s Sentinel as well.

    As for your hunch, the only correct part about it is that I’m Malaysian.

    cheers

  34. Harrison says:

    You are right Susan,

    The Olympic must continue, but Human rights must not be forsaken for economics or whatever monetary benefits. My heart always be with the people of Tibet and NLD of Myanmar.

  35. oyster says:

    Tibet is part of China! So mind your own business. The Chinese will decide what is best for the Tibetans and Chinese.

    Tibetans can roam around freely in China and vice versa. Since Tibetan is under China’s sovereignty, why want to interfere in China’s affair? Why want to divide the Tibetans from the Chinese people?

    Isn’t the West very fond of playing this divide-and- rule game?

    Leave the Chinese people alone! There are much more and better human rights/ freedom of religion in Tibet than in Malaysia. There are no NEP, demolishing of temples, corruptions and ketuanan Melayu in Tibet. So why want to get raved up by this Tibet issue?

    There are other more pressing issues to tackle around the world such as there are more than 300,000 Iraqis children and man/ women being killed and what have you done to protect these innocent lives?

  36. oyster says:

    Isn’t Malaysia a victim of the West and there is no different from the situation in Tibet/ China issue? Now the people of Malaysia are trying to rid this divide and rule game and are we stupid enough not to see a deja vu in China/ Tibet issue?

    So stop being a nincompoop falling into the hands of the West in their divide-and-rule game and be ignorant of it!

    Can Penang seceded from the Federation as it pleases and let the Penang people decide, vote and rule the Penang state? Dey! Use your otak oster-lah?

    Haven’t we suffered enough by this D&R technique of the West?

  37. oyster says:

    We are an oil-rich resource state. We would want to secede from Bodowi’s hp6 government.

    According to that otak tak ctr oster theory, we want to vote, rule and enjoy all the royalties from the pumping of our oil wells.

    So Malaysia will consist of 12 states minus the Trengganu State. There is no problem to this according to that otak tak ctr oster.

    The people of Trengganu will determine their destination.

  38. The Dalai Lama is a wolf in a sheep’s skin if you had followed his course for the past 40 years or so.

    If one is to compare him to PAS of our side, one would say the D.L. is a damn hypocrite, a political wannabe hiding behind the robes. At least PAS is more honest and consistent in their ambition.

    For me at least, I HATE this b@st@rd Dalai Lonkang.

  39. oster says:

    oyster Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 11:38 am

    Tibet is part of China! So mind your own business. The Chinese will decide what is best for the Tibetans and Chinese.

    And let UMNO Malays decide what’s best for the Chinese and Malays. Onwards, Ho!

    And again, you’re distracting from the main issue. It doesn’t matter what the West does, it still doesn’t change the fact that Tibetans have no right to self-determination.

    The West can be nice or bad to China, but Tibetans still cannot vote their future. How the West acts towards Chine is absolutely irrelevant.

    Add to the fact that the “West” is not one giant entity that acts and think alike and you’ll see why that argument is moot.

    cheers

  40. oster says:

    oyster Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 11:48 am

    So Malaysia will consist of 12 states minus the Trengganu State. There is no problem to this according to that otak tak ctr oster.

    The people of Trengganu will determine their destination.

    Yeap, no problem. If the Terengganu electorate voted for a party championing independence, who are we to stop them?

    The difference is that Terengganu has not voted for a party championing independence, while the Tibetans cannot even vote for any party that the CCP does not approve of!

    Tibetans cannot even vote for independence or autonomy or even to stay in China if they wanted to, because they cannot hold their own referendums.

    cheers

  41. penang guy says:

    Wow! If all the states also declare independent, Bodowi will only have his own state left in Penang, which is controlled by the opposition party!

    Bodowi will then be in the opposition party and his PMship will be stripped!

  42. oster says:

    penang guy Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 12:01 pm

    Wow! If all the states also declare independent, Bodowi will only have his own state left in Penang, which is controlled by the opposition party!

    Of course, we would have to have a referundum to see whether there is a big support for such a move in a state.

    The key is the fact that there must be a collection of opinions.

    This cannot be done in Tibet, and THAT is the main issue, not the spat between some Westerners and China.

    People who focus on the West versus China story are like parents who are arguing whose fault it is that their child was hit by a car instead of picking the child up and sending him to a hospital.

    Remember, regardless of your view about the difference between a few Westerners and China, it doesn’t change the fact that Tibetans cannot vote on their future, THAT is the main point.

    cheers

  43. Anonymous says:

    oster got to much twist and turn until i pening lah… kadang-kadang macam umno lah…

  44. oyster says:

    Aiya oster!

    Looking at the judiciary in Malaysia, what democracy are you talking about? There is no separation of powers and checks and balances!

    Malaysia’s democracy is worst than China. In China, if you are caught with blatant corruption, the culprit would be executed by either firing squad or ‘cocktail injection’.

    But in Malaysia, you have massive corruptions committed by corrupt people with impunity.

    Looking at the rigging in Malaysia and the protest by Bersih, the voting system in Malaysia is just a joke only.

    Why did they reappoint Rashit as the chairman of Election Commission even though he had passed his shelf life?

    So voting in Malaysia is just superficial, for show only-lah!!!

  45. yeah lor, why not china be so benevolent like malaysia, china should give independent to tibet (and later xinjiang where muslims are dominant) just like malaysia did to singapura. who knows tibet will proper then (tibetans majority like prayers instead development – that’s democracy, just like aghan likes to grow poppy and kelantaneses reject development). hey china did that once to mongolia – they say mongolia (and manchuria, and korea too) should be part of china, but mongolia manage to gain independence!

  46. oster says:

    Anonymous Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 12:13 pm

    oster got to much twist and turn until i pening lah… kadang-kadang macam umno lah…

    Twist and turn? I said that the main point is that Tibetans cannot vote their future. How simpler can you get?

    cheers

  47. oyster says:

    There are more Chinese than Tibetan. So if there is voting in Tibet, all the Tibetans will be voted out. The Chinese will still rule Tibet. Why the fuss?

  48. oster says:

    anonymous dud Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 12:23 pm

    yeah lor, why not china be so benevolent like malaysia, china should give independent to tibet (and later xinjiang where muslims are dominant) just like malaysia did to singapura. who knows tibet will proper then (tibetans majority like prayers instead development – that’s democracy, just like aghan likes to grow poppy and kelantaneses reject development). hey china did that once to mongolia – they say mongolia (and manchuria, and korea too) should be part of china, but mongolia manage to gain independence!

    But at the very least, it will be a path that THEY CHOOSE THEMSELVES. Who are we to tell them what path is best for them?

    oyster Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 12:26 pm

    There are more Chinese than Tibetan. So if there is voting in Tibet, all the Tibetans will be voted out. The Chinese will still rule Tibet. Why the fuss?

    So? I’m hoping that they get to vote, not hoping for any particular result.

    cheers

  49. oyster Says:

    April 21, 2008 at 12:26 pm
    There are more Chinese than Tibetan. So if there is voting in Tibet, all the Tibetans will be voted out. The Chinese will still rule Tibet. Why the fuss?

    yeahlor, just look at sarawak and sabah. they say there’s malay+melanau (also grouped as malay liao) >> iban in sarawak and kadazan in sabah……

  50. oyster says:

    Aiya! Even if there is voting in Malaysia, so what? Do you thinks voting is transparent in Malaysia? DO you think other components in Malaysia can voice out their opinions against Umno? Lo!

  51. oyster says:

    Looking at George Bush, do you think the Americans vote for him? Fyi, it’s the chief federal judge (kaput) who appointed Bush as the President.

    What democracy are you talking about?

  52. oster says:

    oyster Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 12:33 pm

    Aiya! Even if there is voting in Malaysia, so what? Do you thinks voting is transparent in Malaysia? DO you think other components in Malaysia can voice out their opinions against Umno? Lo!

    Nope, voting is not transparent in Malaysia. But if this post was about Malaysia, I would be talking about Malaysia.

    But the post is about Tibet, and thus I talk about Tibet. The faults of Malaysia does not make Tibet any better.

    oyster Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 12:38 pm

    Looking at George Bush, do you think the Americans vote for him? Fyi, it’s the chief federal judge (kaput) who appointed Bush as the President.

    What democracy are you talking about?

    Indeed, but there was due procedure. And it wasn’t just the Chief Justice who voted, but the entire Supreme Court.

    Furthermore, Bush went on to win the popular vote and the electoral college in 2004.

    A bad choice, but again, what good does pointing your finger does?

    Does it make the lack of self-determination in Tibet any better? No.

    cheers

  53. iyyeo says:

    We should seperate politics from sports. The Olympic is the world’s biggest SPORTS event and in my opinion, we should just leave it as that – nothing political about it.

    As for Tibet, it is part of China for more than 500 years. China is a communist country and not a DEMOCRACY like Malaysia. Perhaps when China becomes a democracy, Tibet can then vote for their own government and independence.

    As for now, let’s just enjoy the SPORTS event which happens once every four years.

  54. oster says:

    As I’ve said, any argument simply shouting “the West is not perfect either” is irrelevant, as the main issue is the lack of self-determination in Tibet.

    Again, this is called ad hominem argumentum, a logical fallacy:
    http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/person.html

    cheers

  55. oster says:

    iyyeo Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 12:51 pm

    We should seperate politics from sports. The Olympic is the world’s biggest SPORTS event and in my opinion, we should just leave it as that – nothing political about it.

    This is a subjective absolute I disagree with. What reasons are there that politics be separated from sports other than people saying that’s simply how things “should” be?

    If sports can be used to achieve positive ends, why not?

    It’s all about context, not rigid unbending rules.

    cheers

  56. iyyeo says:

    Then what reasons are there stating that politics be link to sports? Is making Tibet independent gonna be positive? How do you know? Have you seen both side of the story? The chinese stating that the violence started with the Monks and the foreign media stating otherwise….

    It is all very subjective. And at the end of the day, if you wanna point out human rights issue, there is not one country which does not have them – even Britain, the next country to host the event. So how is it gonna be? Boycott again, disrupt the game again or how is it?

  57. tibet is not part of china lar ….. is just one of the kingdom regularly pay tribute to china, just like korea and mongol to china during dynasty ching, and kelantan and kedah with bunga emas to siam. to say tibet belongs to china is wrong wrong, as china hans always like to say manchu and mongol are foreigners, and yet manchuria (why not korea and mongolia) is part of china today.

    and when will be the best time to gain world attention for tibetans if not olympic 2008 that china hosts.

    if only china leader like TAR or gorbachev, tibet oledi got independence, and later follow by xinjiang (and taiwan too). oster should petition letter to china leaders should act like TAR :)……..

  58. oyster says:

    Tibet will be much better under China than Iraq under USA.

    So why pointing finger at China rather than the US? Why not put Bush under ICJ? Lo!

  59. iyyeo says:

    Oster,

    From the comments I have seen you written, it seems that you are not having an open mind about this issue. ALL YOUR COMMENTS are about Tibet having a lousy life, people are suffering, majority of them want independence, a lot of people are dying from hunger, violence etc. I don’t know where you have read all this but perhaps you should also read what China have done for TIBET.

  60. Is making Tibet independent gonna be positive?

    of course! having religion in politics, and dalai lama as the country leader is great! just like taliban to rule afghan, growing poppy is good coz is generates income to the nation!

  61. oyster says:

    Tibetans and Chinese are all brothers and sisters. Don’t let thugs and the greedy West/ trouble makers divide the people of China and the world.

    All the people will coalesce in China come this August to witness this historical event. All people of the world will compassionately greeting/enjoying among themselves.

    The Olympic athletes will strive their best to compete with each other with Olympic spirit/ flames. Whether an athlete wins or loses a championship, it doesn’t matter but must give your best and never say giving up hope of becoming an Olympic champion one day.

    Only people with self interests would want to sabotage this historical events! They are failures!

    Let the Olympic spirit unite people of the world and those who stoke feelings against the Olympic spirit/ flame should be condemned.

  62. oyster Says:

    April 21, 2008 at 1:05 pm
    Tibet will be much better under China than Iraq under USA.

    So why pointing finger at China rather than the US? Why not put Bush under ICJ? Lo!

    not really, under china you got caught for rape, kidnap, corruption, murder or poppy, you get bullet in your head! under tibetan self-rule, probably you wont get death sentence, a bit of appeal or money or donation to compassionate monks and you’re free! that makes a lot of difference to society!

  63. oster says:

    iyyeo Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 1:04 pm

    Then what reasons are there stating that politics be link to sports? Is making Tibet independent gonna be positive? How do you know? Have you seen both side of the story? The chinese stating that the violence started with the Monks and the foreign media stating otherwise….

    Go back and read what I’ve said.

    I’ve never said I want Tibet independent.

    I said I want them to be able to vote on a referendum.

    Yes, what’s positive is subjective, but giving the Tibetans a right to self-determination is positive in my books.

    Furthermore, the violent rioters feel that their cause is legitimate and that the majority of Tibetans support them. But I ask you, how can China dismiss this claim unless they allow Tibetans to freely express their opinions?

    If you allow the Tibetans to express their opinions on the future and they condemn the violence, wouldn’t that take away the legitimacy of teh rioters? I think you’d agree that that is positive.

  64. Kill Oster says:

    Yeah, this oster chap is just mangling everybody’s say. A lot of cheap shots, rubbish arguments just to score points, shouting down every one. Garbage mouth!

    No doubt about it; He’s a bloody CIA paid agent; part of the “Free-Tibet” campaign. Why don’t you just f***k off and let people express their opinions without your over-weaning ego interferring with everybody’s right to freedom of opinion?

    Truly a nut-case!

  65. oster says:

    anonymous dud Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 1:08 pm

    Is making Tibet independent gonna be positive?

    of course! having religion in politics, and dalai lama as the country leader is great! just like taliban to rule afghan, growing poppy is good coz is generates income to the nation!

    Oh my, I applaud your brilliant techniques of clairvoyance in predicting with definiteness how a Tibetan political system of 2008 would be.

    You must be close to all Tibetans to know specifically what sort of government they want in this modern age!

    Surely you’re using your brilliant prediction abilities to surmise this, and not comparing it to pre-annexation Tibet, which has already passed 50 years and is not necessarily the reference point that modern-day Tibetans would use to define their future state!

    Marvelous skills of prediction, I say!

    cheers

  66. oster says:

    oyster Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 1:05 pm

    Tibet will be much better under China than Iraq under USA.

    So why pointing finger at China rather than the US? Why not put Bush under ICJ? Lo!

    Oh, I’d like to drag Bush to the ICJ too.

    But I’d also like to have Tibet choose for themselves whether to remain under China or outside it. It has nothing to do with how well America treats the US.

    cheers

  67. oyster says:

    Do you think China would allow her people being trembled, even they are Tibetans?

    In constructing the Qinghai-Tibet railway, it took $billions and prolong hard work (50 years) to build the ‘sky’ railroad. It takes a positive thinking mind and strong fighting spirit to achieve this historical project.

    Now Tibet is a prosperous province with business striving every where. Don’t you think a lot of greedy people are eying the new found wealth of Tibet/China?

  68. oster says:

    #
    iyyeo Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 1:08 pm

    Oster,

    From the comments I have seen you written, it seems that you are not having an open mind about this issue. ALL YOUR COMMENTS are about Tibet having a lousy life, people are suffering, majority of them want independence, a lot of people are dying from hunger, violence etc. I don’t know where you have read all this but perhaps you should also read what China have done for TIBET.

    I CHALLENGE YOU TO SHOW ME WHEN I SAID LIFE IN TIBET IS SUFFERING AND A MAJORITY WANTS INDEPENDENCE.

    I’ve never said such a thing, all I’ve said is that Tibetans should be given the choice via a referendum.

    Go ahead, go through my comments and tell me where I said that “Tibet having a lousy life, people are suffering, majority of them want independence, a lot of people are dying from hunger, violence etc.”.

    STOP PUTTING WORDS INTO MY MOUTH

    cheers

  69. oster says:

    oyster Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 1:17 pm

    Tibetans and Chinese are all brothers and sisters. Don’t let thugs and the greedy West/ trouble makers divide the people of China and the world.

    Whether Tibet considers itself a part of China is up to Tibetans to decide, not you, not CHina, not the US and not anybody else.

    Let them vote in a referendum.

    cheers

  70. oster says:

    Kill Oster Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 1:27 pm

    Yeah, this oster chap is just mangling everybody’s say. A lot of cheap shots, rubbish arguments just to score points, shouting down every one. Garbage mouth!

    No doubt about it; He’s a bloody CIA paid agent; part of the “Free-Tibet” campaign. Why don’t you just f***k off and let people express their opinions without your over-weaning ego interferring with everybody’s right to freedom of opinion?

    Truly a nut-case!

    I’ve used logic and reason in my arguments.

    Go ahead and tell me where I made a cheap shot.

    Go ahead and find my logical fallacies.

    Where have I made a personal attack against any one who commented?

    Go ahead and find flaws in my argument, instead of attacking my character.

    Again, a useful link:
    http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/person.html

    cheers

  71. oster says:

    #
    oyster Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 1:31 pm

    Do you think China would allow her people being trembled, even they are Tibetans?

    In constructing the Qinghai-Tibet railway, it took $billions and prolong hard work (50 years) to build the ’sky’ railroad. It takes a positive thinking mind and strong fighting spirit to achieve this historical project.

    Now Tibet is a prosperous province with business striving every where. Don’t you think a lot of greedy people are eying the new found wealth of Tibet/China?

    Again, as I’ve said, this is exactly like Western Imperialists of old, in thinking they are responsible for civilising the world.

    Your assumption is that if China never annexed Tibet, Tibet would never have become prosperous.

    Isn’t that unfair to the Tibetans?

    cheers

  72. . says:

    To “oster”, you really make me laugh after a hot noon of tedious work. Your opinion is warped devoid of any sorts of Universal Human Rights. Do you understand the history of Tibet, only then you can proceeds with your-self righteous truth.

  73. oster says:

    @Kill Oster,

    Please reply to my arguments.

    My argument is that the main point about this issue is that Tibetans should be given the right to vote their future in a referendum.

    Now tell me how that is a cheap shot and tell me how that makes me a CIA agent?

    Seriously, I’d be happy if someone paid me to do this.

    cheers

  74. oster says:

    . Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 1:37 pm

    To “oster”, you really make me laugh after a hot noon of tedious work. Your opinion is warped devoid of any sorts of Universal Human Rights. Do you understand the history of Tibet, only then you can proceeds with your-self righteous truth.

    SO you think I’ve misunderstood? Then go ahead and tell me where I’m wrong, instead of making a personal attack.

    My point stands, Tibet should be given the right to vote for their future in a referendum.

    Regardless of their history, what matters is what Tibetans today want.

    cheers

  75. Hamid says:

    Looks like this Oster chap is suspect.

    His interference with this blog leads me to surmise he is an anti-Chinese arse-hole. The pattern is not dissimilar to the Western mass media like CNN, BBC, etc.. using this opportunity to bash China.

    Bugger off mister! We don’t need no American imperialist agents hanging around these sites!

  76. oyster says:

    Tibet will be a great and prosperous province under China.

    Let the people/ athletes of the world enjoy the Olympic spirit come this August 2008 Beijing Olympics.

    All the best to China and good luck!

  77. oster says:

    Hamid Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 1:41 pm

    Looks like this Oster chap is suspect.

    His interference with this blog leads me to surmise he is an anti-Chinese arse-hole. The pattern is not dissimilar to the Western mass media like CNN, BBC, etc.. using this opportunity to bash China.

    Bugger off mister! We don’t need no American imperialist agents hanging around these sites!

    Did you find a logical fault in anything I’ve said? Did you?

    Apart from your personal attack on me, have you found anything wrong in what I’ve said?

    I’m a Malaysian Chinese btw, by ethnicity.

    But I still think Tibetans should be given the right to vote in a referendum about their future.

    I’ve given my arguments for scrutiny, if you find fault in them, point them out. It’s useless to attack my character.

    cheers

  78. oster says:

    oyster Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 1:42 pm

    Tibet will be a great and prosperous province under China.

    My question stands: is this what Tibetans want?

    Give them a referendum, and if Tibetans vote to stay in China, by all means, it is their decisions.

    What’s important is that it is their decision.

    cheers

  79. surefire57 says:

    Somebody shut up this claptrap Oster!

    I think he has no life and need to seek excitement here! Ha Ha!

    ‘Lil dick oster wanna play!!

  80. oster says:

    surefire57 Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 1:46 pm

    Somebody shut up this claptrap Oster!

    I think he has no life and need to seek excitement here! Ha Ha!

    ‘Lil dick oster wanna play!!

    As I’ve said, if you find something wrong in what I’ve said, point it out.

    No use hurling personal attacks.

    cheers

  81. oster Says: Your assumption is that if China never annexed Tibet, Tibet would never have become prosperous.

    Isn’t that unfair to the Tibetans?

    yeahlor, look at singapura after being annexed by malaysia. maybe tibet become developed like singapura instead afghanistan growing poppies…….

  82. Raja says:

    Hey wanker! Get lost. Nobody is interested in you pushing yur view down people’s throat.

  83. . says:

    SO you think I’ve misunderstood? Then go ahead and tell me where I’m wrong, instead of making a personal attack.

    Answer :This is not a personal attack.

    My point stands, Tibet should be given the right to vote for their future in a referendum.

    Respond : U are absolutely right, as of the case of East Timor/ Timor-Leste.

    My contention is that anyone who perceived US and the West is the “World-Sheriff”. If the US had not come to our rescue during the second-World_war, maybe u and me wouldn’t be writing in a thing called blog.

    Hamid Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 1:41 pm

    Hamid, what a crap!

  84. oster says:

    Raja Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 1:51 pm

    Hey wanker! Get lost. Nobody is interested in you pushing yur view down people’s throat.

    I don’t care really. I’m just interested in stimulating debate.

    Tibetans should be given the right to vote in a referendum. If you disagree, well, tell me why it’s wrong.

    If you don’t want to hear it, don’t.

    cheers

  85. oster says:

    . Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 1:51 pm

    Answer :This is not a personal attack.

    I was told my opinion was warped without justification.


    Respond : U are absolutely right, as of the case of East Timor/ Timor-Leste.

    Glad we agree.

    My contention is that anyone who perceived US and the West is the “World-Sheriff”. If the US had not come to our rescue during the second-World_war, maybe u and me wouldn’t be writing in a thing called blog.

    I agree with you that the US and the West are not “world-sheriffs” too.

    I’ve never said that they are.

    In fact, I said that their opinions are irrelevant, and the main point is that the Tibetans should be given a referendum.

    cheers

  86. oster says:

    For everyone’s convenience, so that they know what they’re throwing tomatoes at me for, here are my points:

    What the West and China says are irrelevant

    That Tibetans should be given a referendum is relevant and the main point

    cheers

  87. Doc No says:

    Someone ass-haul this oster to Tanjung Rambutan.

    Get those strait-jackets over fast ‘cos this bodoh-os is emotionally immature and unstable.

    No saying what he will do next with that motor-mouth of his!!

  88. oster says:

    Doc No Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 1:58 pm

    Someone ass-haul this oster to Tanjung Rambutan.

    Get those strait-jackets over fast ‘cos this bodoh-os is emotionally immature and unstable.

    No saying what he will do next with that motor-mouth of his!!

    Can’t type with my mouth, sir.

    So, apart from personal attacks, did you find anything wrong with what I’ve said?

    cheers

  89. Freedom Man says:

    Should we have a referendum to kick out this arse-hole oster from this blog?

    He has no respect for our say, and yet he goes around puking that Tibet should have her say!

    What an arse-hole!

  90. first, china will never give independence to tibet. there are many bad repercussions if she will to do that, especially her relationship with taiwan. if the province to be granted independence, china will be perceived week, and more independence will follow suit such as up north muslim dominant xinjiang. and taiwan too, hongkong and later more provinces. just like what had happened to russia when ussr collapsed…….

  91. Freedom Man says:

    Should we have a referendum to kick out this arsehole oster from this blog?

    He has no respect for our say, and he goes around pu-king that Tibet should have her say!

    What an arsehole!

  92. Ah Sang says:

    Ya! Chee-Tzin man!!

  93. oster says:

    Freedom Man Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 2:07 pm

    Should we have a referendum to kick out this arsehole oster from this blog?

    He has no respect for our say, and he goes around pu-king that Tibet should have her say!

    What an arsehole!

    I’ve replied to any arguments with logic by seeking fallacies.

    If I’ve been incendiary in any manner, I truly apologise.

    But I think my attitude has nothing to do with whether Tibetans can have their say or not.

    cheers

  94. oster says:

    anonymous dud Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 2:07 pm

    first, china will never give independence to tibet. there are many bad repercussions if she will to do that, especially her relationship with taiwan. if the province to be granted independence, china will be perceived week, and more independence will follow suit such as up north muslim dominant xinjiang. and taiwan too, hongkong and later more provinces. just like what had happened to russia when ussr collapsed…….

    I understand that point, but I feel that this is looking only at the benefits of China.

    And I’m not pro-independence, I just want Tibetans to have their say in a referendum.

    If the vote to remain with China, so be it.

    cheers

  95. nobody will sympathize with tibetans for their actions they have taken. unlike burmese who took up ptotest in peace until the junta open fires on the monks, the tibetans started their violence first by killing some han chinese. this what triggered china to send armies to the province. so, china as one of the superpower today should kowtow to tibet grant them independence just becoz some 10,000+ protesters and killing some of their hans. and china should close one eye becoz of olympics ? since tibet had responded with violence, this will be what they get as repercussions from china! and china is not democratic country but communist, dont expect they will grant electin or referendum – they even mowed down their students in 1989, what’s more tibetans!

  96. driver says:

    oster, you are a true idiot.

    If the Chinese is comfortable with China’s rule, why are you kbc?

    Do you not respect the majority of the wishes of the Chinese people?

    China’s communist system works better for the Chinese people and the 1 billion Chinese are happy with it.

    Whether there is voting in Tibet depends on the Tibet/Chinese people.

    Meanwhile, Bush will be retiring soon and awaiting to sodo**** your As***** kow kow! Since you are a hardcore Bush’s assocracy.

  97. gbush says:

    This ass**** looks ok to me! I luv it minus the high pressure grease!

  98. oster says:

    driver Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 2:29 pm

    oster, you are a true idiot.

    If the Chinese is comfortable with China’s rule, why are you kbc?

    Do you not respect the majority of the wishes of the Chinese people?

    Who said anything about the wishes of the Chinese people?

    I’m talking about the wishes of the Tibetans, and whether they can express this wish.

    They can’t.

    I dislike Bush. I think he should be tried in the ICJ.

    But that has nothing to do with whether Tibetans can vote in a referendum.

    The future of Tibet is for the Tibetans to decide.

    cheers

  99. oster says:

    anonymous dud Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 2:26 pm

    nobody will sympathize with tibetans for their actions they have taken. unlike burmese who took up ptotest in peace until the junta open fires on the monks, the tibetans started their violence first by killing some han chinese. this what triggered china to send armies to the province. so, china as one of the superpower today should kowtow to tibet grant them independence just becoz some 10,000+ protesters and killing some of their hans. and china should close one eye becoz of olympics ? since tibet had responded with violence, this will be what they get as repercussions from china! and china is not democratic country but communist, dont expect they will grant electin or referendum – they even mowed down their students in 1989, what’s more tibetans!

    I never said the Chinese government should kowtow to 10,000 protestors.

    I said that the Tibetans (ALL of them) should be given a vote in a referendum

    cheers

  100. selvaraja Somiah says:

    After decades of repression by China, Tibetans are crying out to the world for change.

    If Tibet was not annex by China, may be Tibet might have turned out to be a benevolent semi-feudal theocratic kingdom like Bhutan or in a not so ideal scenario it might have become a turbulent corrupt monarchy like Nepal.

    The reality is that Tibet is firmly under Chinese control and is going to remain that way. The Han Chinese will soon be the majority people in Tibet. Tibetans will soon be relegated to a subservient second class “minority” in their own country.

    Tibet is not Kosovo or Gaza. It has the misfortune to be located next to a country of one billion plus Han Chinese who are going through a prolonged phase of massive resource-hungry economic development, combined with visceral nationalism. There is no way they will tolerate any serious degree of autonomy for Tibet, whether that be political, economic, religious or cultural. They are control freaks.

    It is sad to know that the prospects for Tibetan independence/autonomy are grim.

    Beijing will now impose a complete news blackout on Tibet and there will be mass arrests. Then, after the Olympics, the executions will start.

    I know and I hope China does care about its international reputation.

    My heart is for the People of Tibet and the Dalai Lama.

  101. Lallang exile says:

    Susan,

    Please read all the facts, including history, before posting a bias piece on Tibet and China.

    Most of your readers’ analysis about the current brouhaha is correct – historically and politically. Tibet – including nether provinces like Xinjiang and Gansu – for example, have always been part of China.

    Unlike Malaysia, the more than 100 minority tribes in China have been encouraged to preserve and practise their unique cultures and languages. They have been granted the same rights as the majority Han people, and their lifestyles have benefited tremendously in the past 20 years since Deng opened China. You have to be in China 20 years ago to see how poor these people were, with no adequate food or shelter.

    The Dalai Lama – sporting Gucci loafers and enjoying non-vegetarian food – is a tool used by the US and the West to badger China whenever the opportunity arises. In this case, it is the Olympics.

    Most people did not follow the news coverage closely, or could not since most of it is Western and bias. For example, some of the photographs released by the Western media on the recent riots in Lhasa were actually taken three years ago! This was because the army’s uniform had changed and the PLA had started to wear new uniforms three years before the riots this year!

    The recent comments by CNN anchor Rafferty has striked a rare nerve in every Chinese – mainland and overseas – because it is a typical remark by a patronising, Western journalist who makes comments about China recklessly and without regard to the Chinese race. Note the number of demonstrations in and outside China against CNN.

    The US have no right to pontificate on Tibet – look at its track record in Iraq and elsewhere. Iraqians are dying by the dozens daily and civil society have degenerated into anarchy under the supremist power’s “intervention for human rights and democracy.” Even the Americans themselves are questioning Bush’s WMD lies.

    When the June 4 student movement in 1989 took place, the Western press reported “hundreds of thousands of demonstrators died in China.’

    In the end, it came to less than a thousand, but nobody wanted to read or acknowledge that the media had reported erroneously on the subject.

    The same here when you posted that TCHRD had inflated the figure by 100 times ( from 324 to 2,300) the number of people detained and arrested. Fact is, the number 324 seems rather little, and the TCHRD wanted to believe that 2,300 was the “correct number ” instead . This is worse than the tabloid sensationalism practised in the UK.

    The likes of CNN is typical of the ugly Western media confronting a now more powerful and informed China. China has grown and will continue growing and nobody could stop that. The current US economy and the once mighty US dollar is on the brink of a collapse – but China continues to support and hold the largest amount of US treasury bonds and shares. China and India continues to subsidise the US by their cheap exports and continued investments. And so on.

    Tibet is just the kicking ball for the West hankering for their lost supremacy in what is known as Asia.

    Never again will that supremacy rear its head with the rise of China, and India in these regions. The Chinese – both the Goverment and its people – will no longer stomach quietly the insults and belittling racist remarks made against them by racist spin doctors officially known as anchors and journalists.

    Let us not be hoodwinked by the crafty Dalai Lama and his US CIA cohorts in the guise of Tibetans striking for “democracy and fredom.” If anything, let us stay neutral in the issue and not take sides unthinkly.

  102. birdbrain says:

    This is where the CIA will come in, checking each every postings. To gauge the support for China. The shit stirring Americans (The Leadership) is just jealous of China’s progress and they are fast losing their BIG BROTHER status.

    Beware of the CIA who has nothing better to do, other than to stir up the shit bucket to spread the foul smell in the air thus making China smells bad!

    We need China to change the status quo!

  103. ktemoc says:

    kittykat 46 said “Malaysians of Chinese descent, and I am one, often complaint loudly of the injustice and marginalisation we face in the country of our birth. On March 8, we were able (thankfully) to register that dissatisfaction through a vote.

    Why is it so difficult for us to have a sense of sympathy for another minority people who are also facing persecution in the land of their birth ?”

    Indeed I ask too, why is it so difficult for us, particularly Chinese Malaysians, to have a sense of sympathy for another minority people (minority by relative availability of arms and financial support from the most powerful nation in the world, the USA) who are also facing persecution in the land of their birth, namely the Palestinians?

    What’s good for the goose surely must be good for the gander!

  104. kittykat46 says:

    Ktemoc,
    This post is about Tibet 🙂

  105. ktemoc says:

    Meanwhile, on Tibet😉

    Look, I don’t have the time to go thro’ the 100 comments of this post to find out whether anyone said this – therefore I’ll say it here (anyway):

    Has anyone considered that the Dalai Lama himself has said that it’s not Tibetan independence he or Tibetans (involved in the protests worldwide) are demanding but merely true autonomy within China (Tibet is described by Chinese authorities as an autonomous region). In other words, the Dalai Lama has accepted that Tibet is an intrinsic part of China.

    However, I noted that what I saw on TV have been vastly different to what the Dalai Lama professed – namely, Tibetan protestors and their supporters (more Western supporters than Tibetan protestors) were holding placards demanding, and vociferously shouting for Tibetan independence, and not greater/true autonomy.

    I had hope that the Dalai Lama as a man of peace would have urged his Tibetan protestors to protest in a non-violent manner but alas …

    … the leadup to the 2008 Olympic Games, especially the symbolic torch relays throughout the world, is too good an opportunity for photo ops to allow to happen without some violence to catch the Western World’s attention, imagination and sympathy.

  106. ktemoc says:

    kittykay, you have to be consistent in your moralising, otherwise you would be seen as nothing more than an American stooge – me just looking after your reputation😉

  107. JY says:

    Who is Oster or US to decide whether Tibetians want to vote? You’ll only know if you are in Tibet yourself, not reading news from a handful of journalists. As we’ve seen from Iraq, the press, whether Western or Chinese or Malaysian can be biased at times. The Taiwan independence issue has also been exaggerated by the West at times. If you ask the real Taiwanese, the picture could be totally different. Just ask your Taiwanese friend. The Western press is quick to pick a few ’empirical’ evidence to support their cause but ignore those who disagree.

  108. kittykat46 says:

    Ktemoc,
    The Dalai Lama has been a consistent advocate of peace.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7302654.stm

    I hope you are not just a PRC stooge ?

  109. . says:

    By Ktemoc,

    “kittykat 46 said “Malaysians of Chinese descent, and I am one”….

    Hahahahahahahahha. U r absolutely magnificent Mr. Kaytee. I guess u know whAT i MEAN, INCLUDING sUSAN. Nothing personal, but smart eh? Hehehehehhehehe.😉

    Will go to the Tibet issues later which is less important than this…..

  110. no torch says:

    was there any protests in KL? If so, please send a link to no.torch@gmail.com or post it at notorch.blogspot.com, as we are trying to follow the flame trough Asia.

    I have been looking for planned action in KL, but I could not find much😦

    Nice Blog Susan!

  111. freewave says:

    (1)
    Here are some links on youtube posted by someone about the truth and lies about western media spinning.

    Link1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROTyGOJ2ZZI&feature=related
    Link2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N8r1I66SA8&feature=related
    Link3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIXoHkUlYNY&feature=related
    Link4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIXoHkUlYNY&feature=related

    (2)
    I think it was a politically motivated whether by the west or by the Dalai Lama. See link below.

    Link related to funds and plan from US CIA to Dalai Lama to overturn china:
    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEFD61538F931A35753C1A96E958260

    (3)
    All citizens in China (tibetans inclusive) gets the same rights. There is no such thing as special rights for the cantonese or hainanese. They don’t get to vote who the government of china is because everyone else is the same, mainly because it is a communist country.

    Link to facts about political rights of the Tibetans in China:
    http://www.printpackworld.com/new_eng/china/2.htm

    (4)
    Gold mines in Tibet?

    “Great stride forwards have been made in Tibet’s tourism industry while the reception capacity has increased evidently in 2007, according to the Tibet Economy Conference held in Lhasa, capital of Tibet Autonomous Region, Dec.16, 2007.

    Tibet’s tourism industry has developed rapidly thanks to the running of the Qinghai-Tibet Railway. As a result, Tibet has become one of the investment hot spot in the world.

    By far, Tibet has more than 1,000 units engaging in the tourism industry and the total assets of tourism industry has exceeded 4 billion yuan (about 520 million USD). In 2007, another 12 star-level hotels and 237 ordinary hotels are open in Tibet while the number of scenic areas and travel agencies are growing.

    Various measures have been taken to regulate Tibet’s tourism markets by departments concerned so that 33 illegal travel agencies and 3 super markets have been cracked down this year.

    Tibet is expected to receive a record-high 4 million tourists in 2007 with a year-on-year increase of 60 per cent. The total tourism revenue has reached 4.8 billion yuan, taking up 73.3 per cent of the total tourism income and 14 per cent of Tibet’s GDP (gross domestic product).”

    (5)
    Population of tibet: less than 3 million people.

    I start to understand why the Dalai Lama (and his followers) wants to own tibet so much. I think they will not get it but he and his supporters will create violence here and there to force China to do something while the USA will again act like a global police to interfere with people’s internal problem.

  112. Jane Doe says:

    That Oster is no Chinese as he claims. Prove it or we shall classify you as a liar and one of the agents provocateur of the West be it CIA or MI6 or the bloody French intelligence.

    Your intent appears to dampen the voice of ethnic Chinese against the grossly biased and racist Western mass media.

    You a running dog ah?

  113. freewave says:

    Susan, can you confirm in those pictures, those are beaten by the Chinese police and not the rioting mobs? People tends to think they were beaten by the Chinese authorities, but were they really beaten by the Chinese authorities, or the gansters rioting violently on the streets? If the chinese police was not responsible for their injuries, it is not fair to assume or for the public to have such perception. Please report the truth.

  114. KShan says:

    oster Says:

    April 21, 2008 at 2:31 pm

    “…But that has nothing to do with whether Tibetans can vote in a referendum.

    The future of Tibet is for the Tibetans to decide.”

    Well, not when it’s instigated by the West in particular, the American, the British, and to a certain extent, the Indian.

  115. Anonymous says:

    olympic is for the whole world, why dont you just leave the beijing olympic run peacefully. Dont politicalize it. Probably Susan just wanna brain wash decent Malaysian to go against China… what a crap…

  116. Anonymous says:

    If tibetian were allow to vote whether they wanna indepence, should not be all the chinese should votes too?

  117. Jane Doe says:

    Yeah, Susan, why are you supporting the CIA sponsored global campaign China? Seems the british MI6 and the French intelligence is also invloved. Why? Can’t you see the bigger picture?

  118. Lallang exile says:

    Oster ,

    Stop hogging this blog. You are no Malaysian, Chinese or not. You sound like the typical bumbling Western expatriate prescribling unwanted cures to Asians and their governments.

    Stop masquerading and quit your lousy spin in this blog.

    Under the old system, the general folk (95 %) were subjected to the rule of theocracy under the monks and the elites. The slavery was terrible and the barbaric practices meted out like cutting of tongues and arms, tendons, etc were horrific.

    Get informed!

    no cheers.

  119. Malaysian Chinese says:

    Tibet was, is and will always be a part of China. Let the Chinese people vote to decide their internal matters.

    For non-Chinese, hands off Tibet.

  120. Surefire57 says:

    Oster, you pea-brained kindergarten level “intellectual” sod, you are nothing but an apologist for the bias CNN, BBC and other Western mass medias. And that makes you greatly suspect as a CIA paid monkey.

    My word, how long the tentacles of CIA!!

  121. iyyeo says:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet
    – Some information about Tibet and if you look at it. TIBET is a part of China since 1751 and no nation has ever accepted Tibet as an independent state.

    http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a777864238~db=all
    http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90776/90882/6391451.html
    – Some good comments about China in Tibet. People are happy with the government and they not looking for changes. Tibetians CHOOSING their own government.

    http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/blog.html
    – not so good comments about China on control of Tibet.

    So whatever is the conclusion is that this is always gonna be a subjective issue. For or against China Rule on Tibet, I strongly feel that it should not affect the Olympics. Sports is Sports. Nobody can predict the future and we are not sure if Tibet being free is gonna be better.

    Is the media bias, yes, because people are bias.

    From Oster:
    -What the West and China says are irrelevant
    Agreed because they are all going to be bias just like all of us who has commented.

    -But I still think Tibetans should be given the right to vote in a referendum about their future.
    I don’t think that is going to be happen and I think that there are more than enough comments and facts above to prove it. By giving them the right to vote in a referendum about their future, China will tend to lose a lot more. As stated earlier, CHINA is a communist country and Tibet is China. So sorry bro, no sure thing as voting. If you look at the big picture from China view, they have made the right decision but obviously, not a very popular one.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Games
    – Olympics has nothing to do with Politics since it was created centuries ago.

  122. wits0 says:

    Kittykat46 sez:
    “Ktemoc,
    This post is about Tibet ”

    Not with mullah KayTee. To him everything is (mandatorily) transmutable into US bashing. Much like poor Lola in the song ‘Copacabana’, it’s always the Chacha.😉

  123. oster says:

    #
    Lallang exile Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 5:36 pm

    Oster ,

    Stop hogging this blog. You are no Malaysian, Chinese or not. You sound like the typical bumbling Western expatriate prescribling unwanted cures to Asians and their governments.

    Stop masquerading and quit your lousy spin in this blog.

    Under the old system, the general folk (95 %) were subjected to the rule of theocracy under the monks and the elites. The slavery was terrible and the barbaric practices meted out like cutting of tongues and arms, tendons, etc were horrific.

    Get informed!

    no cheers.

    Hogging the blog is wrong? I merely replied to all the various allegations.

    Yes that was the old system. And what makes you think that it will definitely return to the old system?

    Furthermore, as I’ve said, I’m not pro-independence, but want to give Tibetans the right to vote in a referendum.

    No matter what assumptions you want to make about the Tibetans, the only way we can find out what they think or what the majority opinion is is by allowing them a free vote no?

    Again, tell me if I said anything wrong, and stop with the personal attacks.

    I know that I’m no CIA agent or anything like that, and I only wish to stand by the strength of my arguments, not my character.

    cheers

  124. oster says:

    Surefire57 Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 5:52 pm

    Oster, you pea-brained kindergarten level “intellectual” sod, you are nothing but an apologist for the bias CNN, BBC and other Western mass medias. And that makes you greatly suspect as a CIA paid monkey.

    My word, how long the tentacles of CIA!!

    Sir, seek logical flaws in my arguments, else they stand.

    I may be a pea-brained kindergarten level “intellectual” sod, but you haven’t noted any fallacies in my arguments.

    -What the West and China says are irrelevant.

    -What the Tibetans think of Tibet’s future is relevant, hence, the need for a referendum to gauge public opinion in Tibet.

    cheers

  125. susan loone says:

    You may state your stand, I welcome them. But I stand in solidarity with:

    Free Tibet Network
    Thai Labour Campaign
    Student Federation of Thailand
    People’s Reforms Group
    Chulalongkorn University Social Critics Group
    Thammasat University Democratic Socialist Tendency Group
    Workers Democracy Group
    Campaign Committee for Human Rights
    Working Group on Justice for Peace
    Youth Network for Peace in Southern Thailand
    Young People for Democracy – Thailand
    People Coalition Party
    Students for a Free Tibet
    International Network of Engaged Buddhists (INEB)

    You may read their press statement here:
    http://notorch.blogspot.com/2008/04/press-statement.html

  126. oster says:

    My question is thus simple, should we disallow Tibetans from expressing their opinions, because the Western media is biased?

    Is a referendum, in which we can gauge the public opinion of Tibet, wrong, because the Western media is biased?

    It’s irrelevant.

    The Tibetans should be allowed to express their opinions, regardless of what the Western media thinks.

    cheers

  127. oster says:

    JY Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 4:07 pm

    Who is Oster or US to decide whether Tibetians want to vote? You’ll only know if you are in Tibet yourself, not reading news from a handful of journalists.

    No, even if you’re in Tibet, you won’t know.

    There’s no way of knowing what Tibetans want.

    That’s why I want a referendum.

    If they choose to remain in China, then so be it. The important thing is that it is their choice and not what some other people think should be Tibet’s choice.

    cheers

  128. kittykat46 says:

    Yes, Susan, I stand with the people of Tibet.

    Not in support of any calls for Independence or separatism, but in solidarity with them against the brutal suppression of their voice.

    Om Mane Pad Me Hum

  129. olympic boy says:

    Ok! Ok! Now let’s cool down and enjoy the Olympic games come August. I can’t wait to see the match China against Brazil!

    I bet all the Tibetans would like to see China thrash Brazil on our home ground, ha ha ha ha…. China Boleh!

  130. jughead says:

    I watch a commtenary on ABC – One angmo saw The Tibetians attck the chinese shops systematically. He saw one chinses boy had to beg a Tibetan Monk to save him from the mobs. Question – who started all this incidence in the first place? Chinese or the Tibetian’s themselves. About the Westerners – they bindly support Tibet beacuse Tibet is a mysterious place. They say China annex Tibet but forget when China was weak, China was annexed by Pommies, Germans, Portugese and even Japanese under the Qing Dynasty. China is recalim Tibet.

  131. democratic says:

    The fact is China with their military might conquired Tibet. If the chinese built rail roads in Tibet that does not make Tibet China!
    If the Tibetians were like the middle east mind set people – specifically the Palestinians, there would have been bombs exploding all over China. China must learn to accept that Tibet does not belong to them.

    In this modern world one cannot just take over someone else’s land and claim its theirs and impose their values on others. If China is really developed and open as it claims to be it needs to address the issue seriuosly in no violent manner not by intimidation.Its a small world. One cannot hide the truth for long.What goes around comes around ok?

  132. olympic boy says:

    The world now recognizes Tibet as part of China just like Taiwan. Can Taiwan a country with the support of US imperialism declare independent?

    Can China allow Taiwan letting US installing ballistic missiles in Taiwan?

    Could US 0John Kennedy allow Russian Khrushchev stationing ballistic missiles in Cuba?

    These are all sensitive/ delicate issues which only China are aware of. China has to take charge for it’s own survival just like any country in the world.

  133. olympic boy says:

    It’s lucky for the Tibetans having Chinese taking over the province. Just imagine if Saddam Hussein or Mahathir is in charge of Tibet, do you think they would allow the monks building more monasteries?

    Could the Malaysian Chinese/ Indians build vernacular schools/ temples/ churches on Malaysia soil?

    We can’t even exercise our human rights at our own backyards and we are trying busybody interfering China’s internal policy.

    We deserve to be screwed by the Umno-led BN.

    The Tibetans are having a brighter future being part of future China whereas we Malaysians are having a very bleak future in Malaysia as compared to the Tibetans in Tibet.

    So save your sympathy to yourself and your children-lah! Bodoh!!!

  134. Pozd says:

    Taken this from a forwarded email:

    The West is on a campaign to demonise China. Why? There are a few videos

    you can access at the link below, which will help you to gain a better understanding

    of the so-called “Tibet Problem”. The Chinese has, since the ousting of the Dalai Lama

    50+ years ago, brought freedom from slavery to 90% of the population, granted land to

    the impoverished farmers and spent hundreds of millions of Dollars building modern

    infrastructure in Tibet, which the former rulers, such as the Dalai Lama and his small

    band of senior Lamas, had not done for centuries, except to enjoy their high caste existence.

    The D.Lama now lives in great comfort at the expense of the CIA and India.

    As the presenter of one of the videos has said, do not read only the foreign media,

    but the history of Tibet, to understand what the “problems” are.

    Highly recommended viewing…send to your foreign friends, especially Europeans

    and Americans. Let the truth be known.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsoc4-QnplY

  135. BeWay says:

    Susan, this got the stupidiest thing that you have done so far.

    Tell us how much you know Tibet. Tell us why Tibet suddenly becomes an issue just before the Olympic’s eve. Tell us more what happen with the riot happening in Lhasa. Tell us why Westerners are so fond of condemning Asians when Westerners brings more deaths to the world.

    If you still have an ounce of honor, it’s high you stop all this nonsense of trying to be a hero when you’ve none.

    You are just getting arrogant on each passing day.

  136. This person called oster is talking heaven from the comfort of his/her home and sounds drunk with all the “cheers”.

    If you are Malaysian, why not try your luck with UMNO and see whether they will “cheers” with you or will reduce you to an OYSTER. If you are so magnanimous with the Dalai Longkang cause why don’t you try your luck in home soil and walk your sweet talk with UMNO? Come back from Tibet high ground and help Malaysia, and never say “cheers” again until you have proven your mettle to all.

    A drunk cat catches no mice.

  137. sloone says:

    BeWay, I won’t spend my time arguing with you.
    You are the arrogant one who can’t tolerate another’s viewpoint.
    Why are people here getting angry with each other and hurling personal attacks?
    Will the Tibetans gain one bit from your hysteria?
    State your stand rationally and let others, too.
    We are not in Tibet and neither are we in China.
    But we make up our minds from what we read and for some of us, the issues that we work on, and the groups that we personally come in contact with – the Tibetans themselves.
    So have some respect for people’s opinion, even though it doesnt resonate with yours.

    LOOKING FORWARD TO A TIBET FREE FROM VIOLENCE!!!

  138. Lallang exile says:

    Ha ha ha ha! Well said, garfield city.

    Oster sounds and act foreign, so he will not qualify your challenge in Malaysia!

    Susan,

    We all adhere to free speech and democracy, but we also place the twin tenets of ethics and truth high in our list.

    I presume you would apply the same dictum both at home and abroad where politics and history are concerned.

    If you haven’t availed yourself to the study of history on subjects you choose to post on your blog, then you shouldn’t let opinions pass as facts and vice versa. Truth is the centrestone of journalism, and your credibility will erode quickly if you let slip of it.

    The Dalai Lama and his gang before 1959 acted just like the Prince Bishops of Europe before they were outsted by more civilised rulers. Like I mentioned, 95% of the Tibetans were freed from bondages and slavery when the Chinese took over and everyone had equal rights under communism. Even during the Cultural Revolution in the Sixties, the Central Government left Tibet with its temples and monastries untouched unlike other Han denominated provinces, and the Tibetans were free to practise their religion.

    Yes, China – with over 1 billion diverse people to house and feed – is and never will be perfect. So it is sheer hypocrisy of the Western world to judge her based on the Western world’s past and present records. Have we forgotten that Malaysia, along with most Asian countries, were COLONIES under them????

    So, let’s just ignore that irritating oster who is not perfect either, and move on with what we need to fix at home in Malaysia.

    HERE and NOW, not somwhere else.

  139. oster says:

    olympic boy Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 7:25 pm
    The world now recognizes Tibet as part of China just like Taiwan. Can Taiwan a country with the support of US imperialism declare independent?

    Can China allow Taiwan letting US installing ballistic missiles in Taiwan?

    Could US 0John Kennedy allow Russian Khrushchev stationing ballistic missiles in Cuba?

    These are all sensitive/ delicate issues which only China are aware of. China has to take charge for it’s own survival just like any country in the world.

    Indeed, this shows how major powers like the US and China are to wary of their own personal interests.

    US should give Iraq a referendum as to whether they want Americans to stay.

    China should give Tibet a referendum as to whether they wish to remain in China.

    cheers

  140. oster says:

    olympic boy Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 7:40 pm

    The Tibetans are having a brighter future being part of future China whereas we Malaysians are having a very bleak future in Malaysia as compared to the Tibetans in Tibet.

    The point is not how “Bright” the future is, but whether Tibetans want to be under China or not.

    Only the Tibetans should decide who their future is with.

    cheers

  141. oster says:

    garfield city Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 8:17 pm
    This person called oster is talking heaven from the comfort of his/her home and sounds drunk with all the “cheers”.

    If you are Malaysian, why not try your luck with UMNO and see whether they will “cheers” with you or will reduce you to an OYSTER. If you are so magnanimous with the Dalai Longkang cause why don’t you try your luck in home soil and walk your sweet talk with UMNO? Come back from Tibet high ground and help Malaysia, and never say “cheers” again until you have proven your mettle to all.

    A drunk cat catches no mice.

    I repeat my points:

    -What the West and China says are irrelevant

    -That Tibetans should be given a referendum is relevant and the main point

    Now, tell me what’s wrong in my arguments instead of hurling personal attacks.

    Also, tell me where did I express support for the Dalai Lama?

    I don’t support the Dalai Lama, I support a referendum for Tibet.

    Don’t put words in my mouth

    cheers

  142. oster says:

    Lallang exile Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 8:58 pm
    Ha ha ha ha! Well said, garfield city.

    Oster sounds and act foreign, so he will not qualify your challenge in Malaysia!

    I’m a Malaysian Chinese. If you don’t believe me so be it. My ethnicity or nationality does not change the fact that Tibetans cannot vote in a referendum about their future.

    Yes, China – with over 1 billion diverse people to house and feed – is and never will be perfect. So it is sheer hypocrisy of the Western world to judge her based on the Western world’s past and present records. Have we forgotten that Malaysia, along with most Asian countries, were COLONIES under them????

    So, let’s just ignore that irritating oster who is not perfect either, and move on with what we need to fix at home in Malaysia.

    I’m not seeking perfection.

    I think the West can be hypocrites as well.

    But all that is irrelevant. The fact is, Tibetans cannot vote on their future.

    And I care about changing Malaysia as well. But this is a post about Tibet, so I talk about Tibet.

    Just because I don’t talk about Malaysia in a post about Tibet doesn’t mean I don’t care about Malaysia

    cheers

  143. sloone says:

    So Lallang;

    What you are saying then, in the final analysis, it is OK for the Chinese to be violent towards the Tibetans.

    Because I say it is still not ok for the Tibetans to be violent to the Chinese . I say charge them in court and prove they are wrong – if you only read my post properly and stop being condescending.

  144. malaysiangirl says:

    Do not keep saying the media in the west is bias when we are not sure non of the media in the east is doing the same. We get lot of information from media but we do not know what we read really reflect a real situation. Some government manipulate media to brain wash people to blind people to make them ignorant. At least in the west, you can hear different voices about something.

    I am surprised so many Malaysians actually support China in the Tibet issue. I have a feeling it is a way for people to vent their anger against the west. I supposed in China all the media is strictly controlled by the government and the news reported can easily stir the anti-west sentiment. But in Malaysia??… there must be a background of this.

  145. Lallang exile says:

    Dear Everybody,l

    ast i counted 51 comments by oster out of 144 – that’s the record high of 30 % participation posted by a commemtator on the popular blogs !! Well, if that’s not hogging, what is? Hmmm , i need my Thesaurus.

    Susan,

    Don’t put words in my mouth. I never said:

    “What you are saying then, in the final analysis, it is OK for the Chinese to be violent towards the Tibetans.”

    The readers of this blog will judge for themselves the above statement made by your goodself.

    if you are talking about the recent riots in Lhasa, the riots were started by a minority group of Tibetans believed to be instigated by western agents.
    Yes, it did get violent – the Tibetans and their agents were so professionally violent that many innocent civilians died and their properties destroyed. The Chinese – on their knees where international goodwill is concerned because of the countdown to the Olympics – were forced to send in the PLA to quell the uprising against civilians and civilian property. These are the facts as reported by the BBC and other Asian media like the respected South China Morning Post and the Al Jazeera.

    In Taiwan as well as Hong Kong, footages of the victims of the riot were shown widely. There was a clip of a man weeping for his sister who died in her shop after being torched by the rioters.

    We are talking about keeping law and order. The clip reminded me of what took place on may 13 1969 back home. It is not OK for the Tibetan rioters to be violent against Chinese civilians and soldiers. Period.

    I am not condescending when I say your post is not accurate as the Chinese have arrested them and they will be brought to court to be dealt with just like the June 4th students. Again, please acquaint yourself with the justice system in China because they have no ISA there and everyone arrested will be charged in court irrespective of the severity of the crimes. The sentence meted out is another story. I think the Chinese will try the rioters once the Olympics are over.

    China has invited the dalai lama for talks in peace many times, but somehow the talks do not take place. Why? because the Dalai wants absolute control of the 3 million people in Tibet instead of sharing it with his fellow proletariat Tibetan brothers presently in power. He hopes to destabilise Tibet with the help of Western agents and put the beautiful state into autocratic rule once more.

    I need not mention the Western agenda in this issue again as other commentators have done a brilliant job already. Should the DL and his Western backers really take control of Tibet, the whole region will be destablised and the “lau pai sing” or ordinary folks will suffer once more.

    Once again, Susan, I am not condescending when I point opinions that were passed as facts. And, don’t put words into my mouth. That alone would disqualify you from being a member of the Fourth Estate.

  146. If this blog plays host to the China/tibet issue then it will be fair if people have digested a reasonable ration of the Tibet past b4 passing words around like sowing wild oats. Have people fully understood Tibetan society b4 1960s and thereafter? If yes, then you will probably agree that this whole sandiwara is orchestrated by the imposter Monk. Why then no dissension when China was helping them, freeing them, salvaging and restoring Tibetan dignity. What referendum, why now? Biting someone who feeds you? Tibetan’s woes are false, they are manufactured by that politically and overly ambitious DARK Monk.

    Talking about referendum, try doing this stunt in Malaysia and let’s see the response from UMNO, esp UMNO Youth. They will skin you alive.

  147. Harrison bin Hansome says:

    oster Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 8:58 pm

    You opined “US should give Iraq a referendum as to whether they want Americans to stay.”

    I thought the Americans did withdraw their troops piecemeal. The leader of Iraq was protesting against any further withdrawal of foreign troops. The Iraqi enforcement (armies and the police) were under heavy onslaught from the insurgents and the frail Iraqi forces is a pushover to the formidable suicide insurgencies. The leader of Iraq maintained that the foreign troops esp. the US to stay and any withdrawal is tantamount to abandonment of the Iraqi civilians and the interim government.

    As for your call for the referendum for the Tibetans to choose via voting whether they are integral with China or sovereign State, I fully support.

    We must acknowledged the Tibetans sufferings under the autocratic China as records implicated that China has no respect for Human Rights at all.

  148. Huaren says:

    For all those so-called human rights activists who take take delight in China- bashing after receiving financial aid from the CIA, just like the so-called Dalai “exiled government”, I say to you all, wherever you are :

    Continue to make noise, BUT Tibet will remain an inseparable part of Zhongguo( China) as it has been since the Yuan Dynasty.

    Huarens throughout the world will not tolerate an independent Tibet. Seeing the torch relay in Kuala Lumpur today, i am so proud of being a Huaren.

  149. Watcher says:

    Sue,

    I agree absolutely with Lallang Exile.

    At first I thought that your radical posturing was deliberate .. to arouse response to the issues raised, but now I am wondering if you are not, in truth, quite a radical by nature.

    In this issue, the Western governments thru their grossly bias media added salt to injury after the violent “CIA-trained” professional Tibetan volunteer “rioters” murdered innocent Chinese – especially a young boy and young working girls – by slandering the Chinese government further as violent and oppressive, and causing “cultural genocide” – just as world attention were being focussed on the Olympic torch relays.

    I ask you, how could a globalised media behave in such a manner and slandering an entire nation of people for the rest of the world to see and hear? Do you ever wonder if this is naught but American imperialism at work? Do you stop to wonder why is America doing this?

    This mater is more than China. It tars all Chinese as sub humans; as people who are cruel and barbaric and consistently violates human rights. It is unspoken racism.

    The campaign is also to stop China and her people from making progress in the world. If you are well read, you would know America’s hesitation in China coming out. Nixon was not exactly liked for going to China and opening the bamboo door!

    So, where do you stand in this bigger picture? Are you going to be used by all these foreign so called “human rights” group to tarnish yourself and your fellow kind?

    Be a bit more objective about the China issue. There are so many much more urgent and immediate areas in the world which needs the world attention. Why are they not getting it?

    Just face it ok? The whole Tibetan issue is an American runned agenda. Without the American media or GWB, Sarkozy, and even UK’s Brown, focussing on it, Tibet and the Olympic torch relays would not be a sensational media story.

    Fact is, many involved wittingly or unwittingly, are pawns in America’s great game.

    Justice for the moment, is siding with China on this issue.

  150. tibetan boy says:

    China! You are so fantastic. You are our big brother. Thanks for the Qinghai-Lahsa Sky Rail.

    Now Lahsa and the rest of the world are linked together.

    No other country except China has such capability. We are really proud to be part of China.

    Yes! Big brother China, have a successful Olympic games as hosts and the Olympiads/ people of the world looking forward to meeting you in Beijing 2008.

    Syabas and all the best to you, big brother China.

    We are really proud of you.

  151. oster says:

    Lallang exile Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 9:57 pm
    Dear Everybody,l

    ast i counted 51 comments by oster out of 144 – that’s the record high of 30 % participation posted by a commemtator on the popular blogs !! Well, if that’s not hogging, what is? Hmmm , i need my Thesaurus.

    I didn’t say I wasn’t hogging. I asked whether hogging is wrong.

  152. BeWay says:

    Susan,

    Neither do I intend to argue over something that is beyond your knowledge to argue.

    As a fair and balanced blogger, it’s an obligation on you to receive and evaluate the news in right perspectives. By publishing an absolute unsided piece of news from TCHRD, you’re making a hugh blunder for your lack of foresight, in not taking the counter argument from the Chinese Government or people before you published your horrible unbalanced piece of gabbage. FYI, TCHRD being a Tibetan extremist youth group, had been caught on many occassions for its outright deceit and lies. A good case is the recent riot in Lhasa where TCHRD published over 100s Tibetans being killed, without a single han chinese being killed. That’s outright disgusting when pictures of many Chinese of different ethnic groups were either burned alive, massacred or murdered.

    The other irrational point that you wrote, “Police in Kuala Lumpur are in cohorts with the Chinese authorities. They are already issuing stern warnings against those who want to protest against the torch relay today” So what do you suggest to our police to do? Let the torch run turns into shambles – a failure for the world to see on how miserable M’sian are.

    As a matter of fact, it’s exemplary of you to get your objective right in your mind. Beware of your own inner prejudice against the Chinese for holding the Olympic game. And for Christ’s sake, don’t pollute the game with your political contamination. It’ll do you a whole lot of goodwill and understanding from all of us.

  153. oster says:

    garfield city Says:
    April 21, 2008 at 10:27 pm

    If this blog plays host to the China/tibet issue then it will be fair if people have digested a reasonable ration of the Tibet past b4 passing words around like sowing wild oats. Have people fully understood Tibetan society b4 1960s and thereafter? If yes, then you will probably agree that this whole sandiwara is orchestrated by the imposter Monk. Why then no dissension when China was helping them, freeing them, salvaging and restoring Tibetan dignity. What referendum, why now? Biting someone who feeds you? Tibetan’s woes are false, they are manufactured by that politically and overly ambitious DARK Monk.

    You call it freeing them and salvaging their dignity, and that’s fine, as it is your opinion.

    But again, has anyone bothered to ask what the Tibetans want? Did they want to be fed by China in the first place?

    The fact of the matter is, you’re unilaterally deciding for Tibet what’s good for it, when what’s good for Tibet is for Tibetans to decide.

    In a referendum, if they decide to remain with China, then remain with China. If they prefer to be independent, then be independent.

    At the end of the day, it’s the Tibetans choice.

    You can say that China has done good things for Tibet, but what really matters is whether Tibet wants anything from China in the first place. If Tibetans prefer to forsake investment from China, then it is their choice isn’t it?

    cheers

  154. oster says:

    The question remains:

    We can debate forever whether China has been “good” for Tibet, but isn’t that just imposing what we think is “good” on Tibet, ignoring what Tibetans themselves want?

    Hence, the need for a referendum. If Tibetans agree that staying in China is good for them, then they will express it in a referendum. Plain and simple.

    If Tibetans want to leave China and perhaps be a little poorer, then it is their choice, not ours.

    cheers

  155. oster says:

    @Watcher,

    You are arbitrating a debate of on which side justice lays with, China or the West.

    But I opined that that is irrelevant, as what is really relevant in the Tibetan question is what Tibetans want.

    It doesn’t matter whether there is a Western conspiracy, or whether China is autocratic, either way, isn’t debating on who’s “good” simply imposing our will on the Tibetans without caring what they want.

    This isn’t a West versus China debate, it’s a debate of what Tibet wants, something we won’t find out until a referendum is open to them.

    What the West or China thinks of who Tibet belongs to is irrelevant, because this is a choice to be made by Tibetans themselves.

    cheers

  156. sloone says:

    Read this:
    http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=20795&article=China+salaries+overseas+Chinese+for+anti-Tibetan+protests

    A friend ask if this is true. I said: anything is possible on both sides. the only thing that cannot be falsified is the bloodshed, whether it is Chinese or Tibetans blood.

    Funny, if Tibet is sooooooo much a part of China, why do we still call them Tibetans???

  157. Harrison bin Hansome says:

    Funny, if Tibet is sooooooo much a part of China, why do we still call them Tibetans???

    Susan, I even lost the empirical proofs of the etymology-Tibetans. I am sure you have solved the puzzle, perfectly.😀

  158. sloone says:

    Who is being violent now?
    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2008/04/21/torch-malaysia.html

    Oh ya…western propaganda again!

    A crowd of Chinese onlookers heckled a Japanese family carrying a pro-Tibet banner Monday before the Olympic torch was carried through the Malaysian capital of Kuala Lumpur.

    Witnesses said the onlookers, who carried Chinese flags and waved banners that read “No one can split China” and “The Torch will spread around the world,” also hit the two adults, a brother and sister, and the woman’s five-year-old son with inflated plastic batons.

    Kuala Lumpur police detained the family, and took a Buddhist monk and a British woman wearing a “Free Tibet” T-shirt into custody.

    Police Chief Muhammad Sabtu Osman said the family was detained “only for documentation” and the woman and monk because they were not carrying their passports. They were all released later.

  159. BeWay says:

    Oster,

    To be fair to you, you must learn how to read more before you comment further with your little knowledge. You’re wasting a lot of time scribbling over in all your postings when in actual fact, there is only one valid point, “Referendum for the Tibetans”.

    Now if the world is as pure as you, maybe that’s not a problem. But then it’s sad, very sad that the world is not what you imagine it to be.

    Why is referendum necessary for Tibetans when Tibet is already part of China for centuries. How about Patani in Thailand, the Shans in Burma, Kashmir, Manipal and Nagaland in India, Scotland/Northern Ireland in UK, Hawaii in US, Basque in Spain, Aceh in Indonesia, Corsica in France…. the list goes on. Now repeat the same question. Why is Tibet so special to you?

  160. BeWay says:

    Susan,

    What is heckled? From Oxford, it means “interrupt and harass”.
    Now what is violent? From Oxford, it means “involving or using great physical force”.
    As a so-called learned person, if you aren’t able to differentiate between the two terminologies, I am terribly sorry for you.

    If you think heckling sound extreme in your vocabulary, now let revisit what the Tibetans did during the Torch Run in England and France. Have you ever heard that a Chinese paralympic was physically attacked in Paris during the torch run? Maybe you ain’t sure or in all likelihood, you’ve not even heard of it.

    I leave it to you to judge what a person you are.

  161. sloone says:

    and Beway, why are you using so many different IDs?
    so many different nicks?
    lack of confidence or are you an imposter?

  162. BeWay says:

    Susan,

    That isn’t any reason for me to use more than what I need here. No, I’ve only one ID and that ID name is “BeWay”.

  163. just put question like these, if taiwan KMT suddenly to announce independence, and china launch her missles to taiwan and result massive destructions, would you condemn china, or blame taiwan for being too ignorant. and xinjiang to launch massive protest calling for independence since their skin, face, hair, culture and even religion (commies are atheist) are different, and china retaliate with bloody crackdown, so would you condemn china or xinjiang for being separatist.

  164. tulipano says:

    “Pay no attention to what the critics say; no statue has ever been put up to a critic.” -Jean Sibelius

    Even if Tibet is a part of China, it is no excuse for the Chinese authorities to use this much violence against them…

    All have rights, no matter what ethnicity, nationality they have. The main thing of this issue on Tibet is that their rights have been violated.

  165. BeWay says:

    Tulipano,

    What is “this much violence”. Care to elaborate what is the measurement.

    Now I’ll like to pose one simple question to you. Do you know how many peoples were killed during the LA riot in 1992.

  166. oster says:

    BeWay Says:
    April 22, 2008 at 12:24 am

    Oster,

    To be fair to you, you must learn how to read more before you comment further with your little knowledge. You’re wasting a lot of time scribbling over in all your postings when in actual fact, there is only one valid point, “Referendum for the Tibetans”.

    That is my only point. I’m trying to say that framing it as a West versus China issue is distracting, as it refuses to grant any credence to a Tibetan opinion that cannot be gauged.

    If you feel that my comments have a lack of knowledge, I would be glad to hear about it

    Why is referendum necessary for Tibetans when Tibet is already part of China for centuries. How about Patani in Thailand, the Shans in Burma, Kashmir, Manipal and Nagaland in India, Scotland/Northern Ireland in UK, Hawaii in US, Basque in Spain, Aceh in Indonesia, Corsica in France…. the list goes on. Now repeat the same question. Why is Tibet so special to you?

    Why is it needed despite years of Tibet being under a Chinese hegemony?

    Because the opinions of a past generation does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the present generation.

    Should the vaunted Malaysian Social Contract be continued just because a past generation felt it was right? Should the NEP be continued because a past generation felt it was right?

    The context of Tibet centuries ago is no longer identical to the modern day context of Tibet.

    We don’t just make one decision and expect it to be correct forever. Conversely, because Tibet has been in China’s sphere of influence for years does not necessarily mean it should be forever. We must gauge the opinions of Tibetans today.

    Thus, a referendum. For the same reason we have elections at regular intervals.

    cheers

  167. oster says:

    Retired Professor Says:
    April 22, 2008 at 12:33 am

    Listening to Sl and Oster, one might as well conclusion here -”Each according to his or her own opinion”.

    I wonder why Oster, is wasting everybody’s time. He seems preoccupied with his statement which he thinks is an a priory.

    Knowing when to stop arguing, is wisdom, if not maturity.

    I do not profess to be wise, but I certainly understand that “when to stop arguing” is a subjective matter.

    I debate to learn. If you find logical fallacies in my arguments, go ahead and demonstrate it.

    Learning is a never-ending experience, and since I debate to learn, I’ll just stop when I’m tired.

    Objective truth is not influenced by how long one decides to continue intellectual discourse. Nor is it influenced by ad hominem arguments.

    As you’ve said, to each his own. You have your own subjective conception of what maturity is, I have mine.

    cheers

  168. oster says:

    Mahathir Dude Says:
    April 22, 2008 at 12:46 am

    This Oster nut is just a “Free Tibet” campaigner assigned to sway public opinions on Tibet. That much is clear.

    I am just about to sign an order to haul-ass this fruitcake to Kamunting. Anyone disagree? And that is not a question. Understand?

    I’m just a regular Malaysian.

    If Tibet votes to remain in China, I won’t mind, because I’m not some Free Tibet fanatic.

    All I want is a referendum for Tibet, which would settle all matters.

    cheers

  169. oster says:

    @BeWay

    You ask “Why is Tibet so special to you?”.

    My answer is simple: this blog post is about Tibet, hence I talk about Tibet. Plain and simple.

    If it was about Corsica, I’ll talk about Corsica.

    How about Patani in Thailand, the Shans in Burma, Kashmir, Manipal and Nagaland in India, Scotland/Northern Ireland in UK, Hawaii in US, Basque in Spain, Aceh in Indonesia, Corsica in France…. the list goes on. Now repeat the same question. Why is Tibet so special to you?

    I support a referendum in Patani, the Shan highlands, Kashmis, Manipal, Nagaland as well.

    Scotland and Norther Ireland CAN hold a referendum, except that pro-independent parties DON’T HAVE A MAJORITY to hold one. And the fact that they don’t have a majority is an indirect verdict against a referendum. That they have access to the ballot box and can express their views freely is the key difference between the Scottish/Northern Irish context and Tibet.

    Hawaii’s pro-independence parties have not been getting any support to get elected into state legislatures, so again, an indirect rejection of a referendum.

    I would support a referendum in Acheh and the Basque counties as well.

    But as said, this is a Tibet blog post, hence I only speak about Tibet. Plain and simple

    cheers

  170. oster says:

    anonymous dud Says:
    April 22, 2008 at 1:04 am

    just put question like these, if taiwan KMT suddenly to announce independence, and china launch her missles to taiwan and result massive destructions, would you condemn china, or blame taiwan for being too ignorant. and xinjiang to launch massive protest calling for independence since their skin, face, hair, culture and even religion (commies are atheist) are different, and china retaliate with bloody crackdown, so would you condemn china or xinjiang for being separatist.

    I would condemn China for using force to oppose a decision made by the Taiwanese themselves, but I would blame the Taiwanese government if they declared independence without first consulting the electorate via a referendum.

    If a referendum was held before and enough Taiwanese support independence, then they must’ve been prepared to face the missiles.

    But if such a referendum takes place and the result is independence, obviously, firing missiles in retaliation of a decision of self-determination is an act to be condemned.

    cheers

  171. BeWay says:

    Oster,

    No, obviously you’re a bit smarter than I thought (a compliment no doubt). However when coming to Tibet, you’re far from knowing what had transpired.

    The real Tibet – rather than Tibet as Shangri-La – from which the current Dalai Lama ruled and then later fled due to the failed CIA-conspired uprising , was a feudal theocracy, where he served as both king and religious leader, in which the temple equaled state, and peasants were slaves and serfs owned by the monks, nobles and even Dalai Lama himself.

    You must understand that China after the end of Qing dynasty, was weak and disorganised after centuries of foreign imperialism and exploitation. For Dalai Lama to take the infamous failed uprising in conspiracy with CIA, he had lost all opportunity to negotiate any meaningful agreement with China.

    No, it’s not the Chinese Govt who is not sincere to negotiate with Dalai Lama all these years. All negotiation ends up in tantrum as Dalai Lama is demanding more than what any sovereign nation can accept; 1) He demands a greater Tibet; a Tibet that occupies the Tibet Autonomy region (TAR), plus yunnan, szechuan, gansu – all in all, 25% of the land area of whole China. Except for TAR, none of the other regions has any majority of Tibetans. 2) All non-Tibetans should be expelled from the greater Tibet. 3) Dalai Lama will continue to be a politician cum religious leader.

    Until and unless, we understand who and what is Dalai Lama as a person and his intentions, we should not jump into conclusion that he is just a pious religious leader. The ministers in his Govt-in-exile are all occupied by his brothers and relatives. He eat meats instead of being a vegetarian. In due respect to the Chinese Govt, Lhasa is more developed than any cities in India. Now that’s a bit of truth that the Tibetans being religious peoples will no doubt miss the presense of a religious leader who will guide them in the religious practises and teachings. But nevertheless, at current situation where the Chinese government is still suspicious of Dalai Lama’s intention (especially when he is still funded by CIA), there will not be a real settlement of the dispute.

    In all honesties, you can’t blame China solely on the one-sided story for the West as well as from Susan.

  172. Plumber says:

    Hey, Os-arse-hole!

    Who cares about your opinion? And who cares about your referendum for Tibetans? Just crawl back into the black-hole where you come from ok? You are so full of-sh*t.

    Obviously, you are nothing more than a Free-Tibet anti-China CIA-sponsored activist.

    Yeah, you are a mother-of-all-sh*t-stirrer!

  173. oster says:

    BeWay,

    You bring up good points about the Dalai Lama and I know how he has plenty of critics himself.

    And that is why I prefer a referendum, as this would shift the burden of power form the Dalai Lama to the Tibetans.

    Should the Tibetans themselves want the Dalai Lama back as their leader, then they carry the burden of whatever consequences it entails, but the main issue is that the burden of responsibility for the future of Tibet not only be carried by Tibetans but be made by them as well.

    Should, on the other hand, the Tibetans vote to keep the status quo, then the Dalai Lama’s credibility will take a dip and China’s legitimacy in Tibet would be enhanced.

    In either case, Tibet’s future will be a lot more credible and accepted if the Tibetans made the choice themselves, instead of their future being a debate between Free Tibet activists or Beijing.

    The legitimacy of the state after all, is always nominally derived from the constituent peoples. The debate will never abate as long as Free Tibet activists see their views as the source of legitimacy or China’s leaders use their views of Tibet always being part of China as the source of legitimacy.

    In effect, Free Tibet and China are both trying to impose their views on Tibet, undermining each other’s legitimacy of rule. Whereas a referendum will be far more conclusive, although most probably not without some dissent on the results, but it will allow some manner of legitimacy to be derived for whoever the Tibetans choose to lead them in whatever system they chose.

    cheers

    cheers

  174. BeWay says:

    Oster,

    All I can say that China will not allow Tibet to have any referendum. What is a point? The same goes to Quebec. There is a hugh hatred between the French speaking canadians and English speaking canadians. So what, they are still part of Canada.

  175. BeWay says:

    selvaraja Somiah,

    The reason you sympathize with the Tibetans is not because they are tibetans. The reason is that you’re an Indian.

    Let me just be very frank to all Indian friends that India does not fare any better than China in human rights. Remember Gujarat where muslims are slaughtered in thousands in 2002. There are still unfinished wars in Kashmir/Jammu and especially in northern belt of India, there are thousands of Maoists roaming around in the countryside fighting for independence. Death came in hundreds when Maoists attacked any towns or police stations. With Nepal under Maoist after the recent election, the next spot couldl be India. Can India stand the world pressure when Indians itself are so fragmented? I am not a fortune teller but truth the sage’s prediction that when there is overwhelming number of poors, the ground is rich for a real revolution.

  176. oster says:

    BeWay Says:
    April 22, 2008 at 2:24 am

    Oster,

    All I can say that China will not allow Tibet to have any referendum. What is a point? The same goes to Quebec. There is a hugh hatred between the French speaking canadians and English speaking canadians. So what, they are still part of Canada.

    For Quebec, you should know that they have had two independence referendums. Both failed.

    The case in point is not that it failed, but that they had access to referendums.

    As for whether China will let Tibet have a referendum or not, we can’t be so sure. That’s why many moderates advocate a middle path (the referendum) as a counterweight against the pro-Beijing and Free Tibet lines of thought.

    Nothing is a foregone conclusion. If you do not at least put out the idea of a referendum, then there would be no incentives for Beijing to ever want to have one for Tibet.

    cheers

  177. ktemoc says:

    Too much emotion here.

    Tibet is a strategic region for China, and of course a concern for the Tibetans – two legitimate parties arguing over history, politics, legality etc, admittedly unevenhandedly.

    However, the USA wants Tibet free (independent, not just more autonomous) for its own strategy against China. In other words, big (US) politics is lending a self-interested and hence hypocritical hand (of support in many forms) to Tibetans in the same manner as it had in Afghanistan, initially to the Talibans, then suibsequently to the other side, the Northern Alliance warlords.

    One sees American interference of such nature all over the world even in former Eastern Europe (now in Georgia, Ukraine, Romania, Albania, Czech, Poland) and the Middle East, as it is now suporting Fatah against Hamas when it once attempted to suppress Fatah. India (and even Vietnam) is one of its newly embraced in its strategic containment of China. A rightwing Sakorzy government in France has also lent that nation’s support to the anti Games movement.

    The Chinese have pissed poor PR and whilst the arguments may be that some Tibetans could have started the killings in downtown Lhasa (to kickstart the Free-Tibet-anti-Beijing campaign?) with the Chinese authority clamping down in its usual hamfisted way, Beijing now looks bad to the people of the Western world. By contrast the Dalai Lama is one smart politician who knows lots about PR in the West. He is exploiting that to the hilt.

    The Tibetans (and perhaps even the Dalai Lama) are ensuring they get max publicity in this one-in-a-lifetime opportunity, making China look so bad that even a few countries (hopefully more) may look towards boycotting the Games, or better force China to talk to the Dalai Lama, allowing him to put one foot in the door.

    Whilst the Dalai Lama talks about Tibet being an intrinsic part of China and that he only ‘appeals’ for greater autonomy for Tibet, his supporters are screaming for full independence. The Tibetans know the Chinese will react badly so the more violent they behave, the better would be the PR outcome for them. Even harsh Nepalese police control of their violent protests has resulted in bad publicity, not for Nepal, but for Beijing.

    Violence gets better publicity than calm peaceful protests – which has been why there have been complete inconsistency between the peaceful public image of the Dalai Lama and the extremely violent Tibetan protestors. He only needs to say one calming word to his protestors … alas …he has avoided that thus far in the interviews I have seen him in.

    It’ll be a shame because nothing that the Tibetan do or nations boycotting the Games will change China, as in the ultimate national strategic consideration China would prefer to lose the Games (and reputation) rather than Tibet, so vital to its defence.

    If the protests badly affect the Games, even to its eventual candcellation, I fear the subsequent outcome, the retribution of Beijing’s resentment on the Tibetans. The Dalai Lama can now kss his hopes of even returnig to Lhasa. The reality is … for China, regardless, Tibet s non-negotiable. The losers will be both China and Tibetans.

  178. highschooltom says:

    anyway, i dont support tibet using violence, though i dont support china when comes to human right and corruption topics..both are just evils..as for dalai lama, the title ”his holiness” and ”nobel price for peace’ is a joke…if he is so holy and noble, he should just go in the forest and preach and follow the traditional and noble way of Siddhartha Gautama…not like appearing on tv or media…he keeps harping on human right issues and yet he makes friend with george bush (the real killer!) and other evil politicians…

    and oster..yeah whatever, referendum for tibet!! happy?? and no cheers please🙂
    sloone, penangite in penang, sarawakian in sarawak, londoner in london..thus calling tibetan in tibet is fine i think..

  179. tibet eagle says:

    The Chinese government is in control and responsible in managing the whole country including Tibet. It’s up to the Chinese government to administer the country.

    Nobody should interfere in the affairs of China.

    Huff and puff all you can, but the fact China will rule China including Tibet as she pleases, period.

  180. hutchrun says:

    `The Chinese have pissed poor PR …-ktemoc`

    There he goes again, defending the indefensible. China is the darling of the West, not those miserly Indians, or Tibetan `scroungers`.
    The West in fact finds the whole thing embarassing as most of the protesters were Leftist progressive oriented who while they they talk of peace, are prone to violence. The same accuse their Govts of much of what the Ktemoc is usually crying over.

    But to paraphrase Caesar`s soothsayer: `The Olympics are coming but not` gone.

    Hidden from public knowledge for the moment is that China has already stopped granting, and started cancelling visas granted to Muslims. Muslim businesses in Peking are forced to shut down.

    So how will these same `brave` patriotic Chinese react when the Uighur muslims make a big splash at the Olympics? Can we hope to see them out on the streets of KL waving their red flag?

  181. sos boy says:

    All the heroic uncles and unties, why no making noise on the keris wielding guy who closed our school?

    I don’t think the Chinese government would close down a monastery or any school in Tibet/ China?

    Why nobody fighting for us for the reopening of our school (save our school Damansara) so that we could study in decent school? This is unprecedented and is happening in Malaysia.

    Have you studied in a ‘school’ located in a temple before? Why you all never fighting for us- your fellow Malaysian citizens instead of so fervently fighting for monks in Tibet?

    The Tibet student monks/nuns are studying in spacious and modern monasteries. Aren’t they are soooo lucky and yet you uncles and unties are fighting so fervently for them!

    We are learning in a deplorable tiny containers and yet you heroic uncles and unties bypass us, where got meaning?

    Are you all aspiring to be monks and nuns in Tibet?

    Please-lah support us and help us by urging our government to reopen the school.

    This is for real and not some kungfu fighting story.

  182. sos boy says:

    <a href=”http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UREbUnaVQSs”<Save Our School- Damansara(video)

  183. Huaren says:

    Selvaraja Somiah and other Indians,
    Please show your support, concern and loving-kindness to the Untouchables and lower caste Hindus in your House (India) before poking your nose at the internal affairs of your Neighbour( China ).

    Clean up your own mess first….No cheers !

  184. hutchrun says:

    `The Tibet student monks/nuns are studying in spacious and modern monasteries.`

    A good point that needs further elucidation. The same are not under the control of Dalai Lama who fled Tibet in `58 (or therabouts). Most of those monks protesting in Tibet were not even born then. They were trained under the Communist Party of China.

    Whereas the protests in China are till now directed only against the French, the protests by the overseas Chinese are directed against the authorities of the UK, France and the US and the media of those countries. It is learnt that the protests inside China as well a broad are being sponsored and directed by the Ministry of Public Security, which is China’s internal intelligence and security agency. Mr. Meng Jianzhu, the Minister for Public Security , is viewed by many as the head of the new group of Neo Red Guards, which is increasingly dictating the Tibet policy after the uprising began in Lhasa on March 10,2008, and from there spread to other Tibetan-inhabited areas of Tibet, Gansu, Qinghai and Sichuan.

    The Neo Red Guards are reportedly of the view that countering what they see as an international conspiracy to bring about a splitting-up of Tibet and Xinjiang from China is more important than holding the Olympics in harmony. They are, therefore, not worried about the likely adverse impact of their campaign on the Olympics.

    As part of its Patriotic Re-education campaign, the Ministry of Public Security has ordered all Buddhist monasteries in the Tibetan-inhabited areas to fly the Chinese national flag side by side with their religious flag. The monks have been resisting this order. The number of arrests so far is estimated to be more than two thousand. These figures include those arrested for their suspected participation in the violent incidents after March 10, those detained as a preventive measure and those arrested for refusing to fly the Chinese national flag.

    The orders issued by the Ministry of Public Security to fly the Chinese national flag do not apply to the places of worship of the Muslims in the Xinjiang province.

  185. kittykat46 says:

    “I don’t think the Chinese government would close down a monastery or any school in Tibet/ China?”

    I’VE GOT NEWS FOR YOU

    http://news.sbs.com.au/worldnewsaustralia/tibetan_monasteries_39closed39_543743

  186. sos boy says:

    look at our government’s style also-lah:

    Aku Janji

  187. John@BeWay says:

    hutchrun,

    You should be ashamed of yourself of plagiaring somebody works as your own.

    See http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080421&fname=raman&sid=1

  188. locksmith says:

    It’s worst in Malaysia-lah, peaceful demo also cannot!

    Human Rights Violations in Malaysia 2005

  189. BeWay says:

    The hidden agenda behind Tibet turmoil from http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/4880/

    The grainy, sneaked-out footage of Tibetans rioting in Lhasa and in parts of China itself clearly reveals one thing: Tibetans want more control over their daily lives and destinies. Frustrated with living under illiberal and undemocratic Chinese rule, they are lashing out against what they consider to be symbols of Chinese domination: Han Chinese businesses and buildings owned by Chinese officialdom.

    But there’s another story behind the images of instability being broadcast around the world, a more complex, dangerous and difficult-to-spot story of cynical, spiteful political manoeuvring. Elements in the West have effectively encouraged Tibetans to riot, not because they are committed to democracy and liberty, but because they fear and loathe the Chinese. Western encouragement of Tibetan instability may dress itself in the rallying cry of ‘Free Tibet!’, but its real motivation is to ‘Humiliate China!’

    The Tibetan protesters’ angry outbursts reveal their deep-seated dissatisfaction with life under the Stalinist regime. Yet the protests can also be seen as a physical, violent manifestation of Western China-bashing, which is increasing in intensity as the Beijing Olympics approach. For the past three months, Western officials and commentators have implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) encouraged Tibetans and others to ‘use the Olympics to humiliate China’ (1). Taking their cue, at least in part, from Western culture’s feverish fear and suspicion of China, Tibetans have launched protests that seem designed as much to please Western observers as to push through real, meaningful changes in Tibet and China.

    In both their timing and their presentation, the protests seem more a product of Western cajoling than of an independent, groundswell demand for liberty amongst Tibetans. It is no coincidence that the protests, reportedly the biggest amongst Tibetans since the late 1980s, have erupted in the run-up to Beijing 2008. Vast numbers of political entrepreneurs and activists are trying to transform the Olympics into a platform for moral posturing and China-bashing. According to the International Herald Tribune, such is the frenzied politicisation of the Olympics by Western officials and campaigners that athletes are becoming confused about which cause to support. They have found themselves ‘overwhelmed by menu choices’ and also by numerous ‘wardrobe decisions’: should they wear a ‘China, Please’ armband to protest against China’s links with Sudan, or a yellow ‘Livestrong’ bracelet to indicate their support for a ‘pollution-free games and lead-free toys’? An American triathlete has complained: ‘Every time you turn around, there is someone trying to make a statement about something.’ (2) The relentless politicisation of the Olympics by Western elements, the widespread discussion of Beijing 2008 as an opportunity to ‘humiliate China’, has helped to create a volatile atmosphere in the more restive parts of China and its surrounding territories, including Tibet.

    Presentation-wise, the protesters’ use of English slogans and their speedy dissemination of mobile-phone footage suggest the demonstrations are aimed very much at a Western audience. In the march of the Tibetan monks in northern India last week, and during the more fiery protests in Tibet and China over the weekend, Tibetans carried placards with English-language demands such as ‘Tibet Needs You’. They wore headbands saying ‘Free Tibet’ – the favoured slogan of Western middle-class and even aristocratic pro-Tibet sympathisers, such as Prince Charles (3). Tibetan monks in Dharamsala, India (where the Tibetan government-in-exile resides, led by the Dalai Lama) have put up English posters saying ‘Beijing 2008: A Celebration of Human Rights Violations’ (4). One British newspaper has celebrated Tibetan protesters’ use of ‘the most dangerous weapon in the world – the cameras on their mobile phones’ (5). Many Western observers who cheer Tibetans for using this ‘weapon’ to beam images of their struggle around the world would probably feel very uncomfortable if Tibetans used real weapons to force their Stalinist rulers to make changes or concessions.

    The protests seem orientated very much towards the outside world. They appear to gain their legitimacy and fire from today’s widespread China-bashing, and they seem designed, in some ways, for Western consumption. This shows the extent to which Tibetans have become caught up in a global tug-of-war between the West and China. No doubt some people feel genuinely inspired by the Tibetan unrest, but many of the Western elements cheering the Tibetan cause and encouraging the Tibetans to ‘humiliate China’ are motivated less by a genuine commitment to liberty and democracy than by a deep and cynical desire to make life difficult for the Chinese.

    Today’s Tibetan protests are taking place in a broad, quite sinister political context: the West’s transformation of China into a cultural and political target. In recent years, China has inexorably, and in some ways unconsciously, been transformed into a whipping boy for the West. Anti-Chinese sentiments cut across the political divide: on both the old right and the new left, attacking China for its economic growth, human rights record, environmental destruction or suppression of the Tibetan people has become de rigueur. There is an unspoken consensus today – amongst Western officials, commentators and radical activists – that China is a global threat which must be put back in its place with a short, sharp dose of humiliation. Far more than the demonisation of the Soviet Union as the ‘Evil Empire’ during the Cold War era, the labelling of China as a dirty, uncontrollable, violent beast enjoys widespread, unquestioned support throughout political circles in the West.

    On the right, China-bashing has become a way of settling old scores from the Cold War. American right-wing thinkers and officials seem to take comfort in the familiar feeling of standing up to an ‘old communist foe’. Robbed of the ‘Evil Empire’ in the East by the end of the Cold War, and thrown by the unpredictability of global affairs more broadly, old right elements cling to China as an old-fashioned enemy from an era when politics was simpler and international affairs were more black-and-white; they are trying to recreate that era with a new ‘yellow-and-white’ divide between barbaric China and the civilised USA (6). Last week, the Pentagon made a splash with its annual report to US Congress on the threat posed by Chinese military power. It was hard not to nod, at least in partial agreement, with the Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman who accused officials in the Pentagon of being consumed by ‘Cold War thinking’ (7).

    There is also an element of palpable jealousy in right-wing attacks on contemporary China. As America’s economy spins from one crisis to another, becoming reliant in many ways on East Asian cash to bail it out, traditionalist economic thinkers are discussing Chinese growth as a problem and a threat. Using the language of environmentalism – clearly sensing that old-fashioned protectionism would not go down very well today – establishment publications in the US publish essays with headlines such as ‘Choking on growth’; they argue that if China is to reduce its carbon emissions (that is, slow down its growth) then there will have to be a ‘wholesale mindset change’ amongst the Chinese people (8). Books such as The River Runs Black: The Environmental Challenge to China’s Future are snapped up and celebrated by traditionalist American thinkers and economists (9).

    Amongst left-leaning campaign groups and writers, China has become the No.1 International Bogeyman because of what they see as its ceaseless industrialisation. Westerners who find the idea of growth so nineteenth-century openly discuss China as a poisonous nation that is killing its own people and possibly the planet. Liberal green writers see only the ‘dust, waste and dirty water’ in modern China; they describe the economic progress there as the ‘mass poisoning of a people and the ecological devastation of a nation’, which is a product, apparently, of greed – ‘ours and theirs’ (10). Those greedy Chinese, getting jobs in the city and buying cars and TVs… why don’t they go back to the paddy fields where they belong? Green campaign groups call on Western nations to cut their political and economic ties with China, and instruct Western consumers that ‘If it says “Made in China”, don’t buy it’: only then, they argue, will ‘The World’s Biggest CO2 Emitter’ and ‘The World’s No.1 Consumer of Coal’ (that’s ‘China’ to those of us who don’t think and speak in the dehumanising language of trendy China-bashers) be forced to change its ways (11). They fancy this as a radical stance, but in today’s Great China-Bashing Consensus, greens are merely the protesting wing of the backward, fearful, protectionist politics of a West worried about the ‘Chinese threat’.

    In many ways, campaigners and commentators in the West are projecting their own disgust with ‘the Western way of life’ on to China. They see in China everything that they doubt or loathe about modernity itself. That is why commentators frequently tell China not to make ‘the same mistakes that we made’. On everything from economic growth to sporting competitiveness, from the use of coal to the building of skyscrapers, today’s China-bashing is motivated by Western self-loathing, as well as by spite and envy towards the seemingly successful Chinese. Ironically, this means that China is now seen as ‘the Other’ precisely because it appears too Western: it is China’s ambition, growth, its leaps forward – things that a more confident West might once have celebrated – which make it seem alien to Western observers who today prefer carbon-counting to factory-building and road tolls to road construction. China-bashing is underpinned by a crisis of belief in the West in things such as progress, growth, development.

    It is the sweeping consensus that China is dangerous and diseased that has attracted Western observers to the issue of Tibet. Both left and right elements in the West are exploiting the Tibet issue as a way of putting pressure on China. They are less interested in securing real freedom and equality for Tibetans, and for the Chinese people more broadly, than they are in using and abusing internal disgruntlement in China and nearby territories as a way of humiliating the Chinese government. That is why Tibetans can symbolise different things to different people. For conservative commentators, the Tibetans are warriors for freedom against a Stalinist monolith; their protests are a replay of the Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia in 1989 (12). For greener, more liberal campaigners, Tibetans are symbols of natural and mystical purity in contrast to rampant Western and Chinese consumerism. As one author puts it, Tibetan culture offers ‘powerful, untarnished and coherent alternatives to Western egotistical lifestyles [and] our gradually more pointless pursuit of material interests’ (13). Various political factions in the West are using Tibetans as ventriloquist dummies in order to mouth their own complaints against modern China. They are promoting Tibetan unrest not to liberate Tibetans but in the hope that the protests will represent their own personal disgust for China in a real-world, physical manner.

    There is a long history of Western politicians and activists using Tibet as a stick with which to beat China. In his fascinating book Prisoners of Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism and the West, Donald S Lopez Jnr shows how, in the Western imagination, ‘the invasion of Tibet by [China] was and still is represented as an undifferentiated mass of godless Communists overrunning a peaceful land devoted only to ethereal pursuits… Tibet embodies the spiritual and the ancient, China the material and the modern. Tibetans are superhuman, Chinese are subhuman.’ (14) Today, too, pro-Tibetan activism often disguises a view of the Chinese as subhuman. Indeed, in the current, all-encompassing right/left consensus about China, even left-leaning campaigns can employ old right tactics of demonising the Chinese. A poster for the trendy campaign group Free Tibet shows Tibetans as serene and peaceful and the Chinese as smog-producing modernisers with distinctly slitty eyes and goofy teeth (15).

    spiked is no friend of the Chinese regime. Yet those promoting self-serving internal unrest in the run-up to the Olympics, encouraging Tibetans and others to bash China for real where the West only does it with words and propaganda, are playing a dangerous game indeed. Such a strategy of cynical destabilisation could unleash yet more violence in China, and have repercussions around the world. And the biggest losers, at least in the short term, are likely to be Tibetans themselves: they will not win liberty or equality by being transformed into performing protesters for the benefit of Chinaphobic Westerners.

  190. to all the buddhist, you should stand behind dalai lama and against those commies who are atheist! you know who dalai lama is ??

    quote from wiki:

    Dalai Lama is the title given to an individual who is the spiritual and, sometimes, temporal leader of Tibetan Buddhists worldwide. This person is believed to be the current incarnation of a long line of Tulkus, or Buddhist Masters, who have become so enlightened as to be exempt from the wheel of death and rebirth. These ascended masters have chosen of their own free will to be reborn to this plane in order to teach humanity. A Lama (meaning “Teacher”) is a title given to many different ranks of Tibetan Buddhist clergy. The modifier “Dalai” roughly translates into the English word “Ocean,” making the full title “Ocean Teacher,” meaning a teacher who is spiritually as deep as the ocean.

    even “little buddha” movie which star keanu reaves oso got show dalai lama as one never dies and always reincarnate. so dalai lama must be respected, man…..

  191. alex says:

    TRY TO REFUTE THIS IF YOU CAN:

    China arrest over 572 monks from Kirti Monastery in two-day raid

    TCHRD[Tuesday, April 01, 2008 18:47]
    http://www.tchrd.org

    From credible information received from multiple sources in Tibet by the Tibetan Centre for Human Rights and Democracy (TCHRD), a total of 572 monks from Ngaba Kirti Monastery were arrested by the Chinese People’s Armed Police (PAP) and Public Security Bureau (PSB) following a two day raid in monks’ residence on 28 and 29 March 2008.

    As reported earlier by the Centre, more information on the number of monks arrested following two days of raids in Ngaba Kirti Monastery in Ngaba County (Ch:Aba Xian), Ngaba ” Tibet Autonomous Prefecture” (‘TAP’), Sichuan Province, is surfacing from the area. According to several credible sources, a total of 572 monks including novice as young as ten years old from Kirti Monastery were known to have been arrested in two days’ raid at the monastery by PAP and PSB officials. Before the launch of raids in the monastery on 28 March, hundreds of PAP and PSB reached the monastery, dispersed people, mostly devotees and visitors gathered around the monastery compound, and ordered surrounding shops to be shut down.

    During the sudden and thorough raid, monks with modern communication gadgets such as mobile phones, cameras, computers or MP3 players in their residences were known to have been arrested under suspicion of having communicated with the exile Tibetan communities. The PAP and PSB ransacked every room of the monastery, baring every box and cupboard with rifle butts. There were even reports of security forces taking advantage by taking away valuable items from monks’ residences. The sources also confirmed that in an attempt to hurt the religious sentiment of the Buddhist monks, the PAP and PSB officials forced monks to step over the portraits of the Dalai Lama found in monks’ residences. The security forces even took photographs of monks who were coerced to hold the banned Tibetan national flag and portrait of the Dalai Lama to use as evidence of their crimes. The sources confirmed that symbolic ceremonial weapons hung on the statues of protecting deities inside the monastery altar were also reported to have been confiscated, and were accused of being weapons used by the protesters.

    On the day of the raid in Kirti Monastery on 28 March, around 30 Tibetans who were arrested a few days earlier were known to have been paraded around the street of Ngaba County in a military truck to intimidate common people from undertaking further protests. Two monks identified as Ven. Lobsang Tenzin and Ven. Lobsang Chodhar of Kirti Monastery were among the group in that truck, according to the source.

    On 29 March, PAP and PSB raided each and every residence of Ngatoe Adue Monastery in Ngaba County. There is no report of arrests from these raids at the moment.

    In another incident, on 29 March a similar raid was carried out by the PAP and PSB officials at around dusk in the Taktsang Lhamo Kirti Monastery (a branch of Amdo Ngaba Kirti Monastery) in Dzoge County (Ch:Ruanggui/Zoige Xian) Ngaba “TAP” Sichuan Province. Scores of monks were arrested from their residences after the raid, of which identities of only 19 monks are known at the moment. Next morning, around 80 Chinese government officials and a large number of PAP forces carried out sudden raids again in Taktsang Lhamo Kirti Monastery. There is neither clear information on the exact number of monks arrested nor about officials finding any incriminating documents after the raid in the monastery. However, the officials confiscated weapons displayed on the altar for protecting deities in the monastery, which officials alleged to have been used by the protesters. One source confirmed that there are shortages of food, water and medical attention in the monastery after successive protests broke out in Ngaba County.

    On 30 March, a similar raid was carried out by PAP and PSB in every residence of Gomang Monastery in Ngaba County, Ngaba “TAP” Sichuan Province. At least twenty monks from the monastery were known to have been arrested after the raid; however, the identities of those arrested have not yet been ascertained. The Centre will continue to monitor the situation and will update as and when more information on these arrests surfaces. In an earlier protest in Ngaba County, at least 15 to 20 monks of the same monastery are known to have been arrested.

    On 30 March, at least 20 monks of Ngamey Dongri Monastery (a branch of Ngaba Kirti Monastery) in Ngaba County are known to have been arrested by PAP and PSB officers. The reasons for their arrest are unknown at the moment. There are even reports of a few people surrendering to the authorities but their identities are not yet established. Sources confirmed that several elderly people in the area were reportedly beaten with rifle butts by PAP and PSB officials.

    At least 23 Tibetans including a 16 year old school girl Lhundup Tso, have been reportedly killed, hundreds critically injured, and many more arrested, as Chinese authorities resorted to violent crackdowns to quell the peaceful Tibetan demonstrators demanding independence for Tibet in Ngaba protest on 16 March 2008.

    TCHRD condemns in strongest terms the acts of Chinese security forces’ in dealing with monks by ransacking monastic institution at will and arbitrarily arresting monks without formal charges. TCHRD strongly believes that all Tibetan people inside Tibet have equal rights to freedom of expression, assembly, movement and other basic fundamental rights enshrined in various international covenants that China is party to and has clearly promulgated in her own constitution.

  192. locksmith says:

    What is happening in Tibet is just a small potato as compared to Iraq where one million Iraqis had been killed by the US led western powers.

    Boot George Terrorist Bush out from Iraq.


    Boysetsfire-“Toy Gun Anthem” – War Atrocity in Iraq

  193. Kill Oster says:

    hutchrun –

    “It is learnt that the protests inside China as well a broad are being sponsored and directed by the Ministry of Public Security, which is China’s internal intelligence and security agency”

    Is that your opinion or do you have proof?

    You talk like a typical Western media mouthpiece. As though Chinese are not individuals, have no feelings, and are unable to protest spontaneously or in an organizes way!

    Anything that is done by China is slanted by the Western media. Anything the Chinese press writes is propaganda while whatever the Western press says, is not.

  194. alex says:

    bloody hell to those pro-china commentators…if china was so great, tell me, why the bloody hell does millions of students run away from china and go study in the west? then they condemn western media. bloody hypocrites.

    we are not against the chinese people, but the chinese authorities. yeah…of course no ISA, coz anyone who speak up against the government gets jailed.

    and if you are in china, do you think you can read critical websites?

    come one, come on…dont speak for your paymasters la….

  195. bnsupport says:

    I agree with Oyster that Tibet should have referendum within Tibet ,not within China. the sovereign country which Tibet is part of . All Chinese not allow to vote, only Tibetans can vote. Tibet should have referendum every year or for that matter every week until they get their independence. China should also invite President Carter and make sure he have permenant residence there because referendum is being held every week.That will be fair.

  196. locksmith says:

    This Nancy Pelosi is one of the 10 most corrupt politicians in the US and yet she is the House Speaker of the Congress. What a big joke to US democracy. She should be in the penitent serving time instead of involving in the Tibet issue.

    Now this Nancy is diverting the attention of the world to Tibet which is non of her concern!

    Nancy Pelosi, More corrupt than any Republican

    Judicial Watch Announces List of Washington’s “Ten Most Wanted Corrupt Politicians” for 2007

  197. call for tibet to have referendum – yes
    call for taiwan to have referendum – yes
    call for xinjiang to have referendum – yes
    call for hongkong to have referendum – yes
    call for qinghai and sichuan to have referendum – yes
    call for inner mongolia to have referendum – yes
    call for heilongjiang to have referendum – yes

    at the end china be like ussr collapse with more independent countries come out, and the president is hailed by us and west as hero!

    no, CPC should be disband and PRC should be dissolved and merge with KMT and become ROC again, since CPC is so undemocratic, one party system and violate human right!

  198. so many chinese chauvinists…..
    to say tibet part of china is wrong as the han chinese always like to address these residents (along with mongol, liao, manchu, koreans, etc) as foreigners!

    actually korea (independent from japan), mongolia (from ussr), and vietnam aka annam (from france) all should belong to china! maybe china should claim stake on these countries like saddam claim kuwait …..

  199. Whore of babylon says:

    it is quite strange to see that most of those who lambast the supposed ‘western media’ are doing the lambasting in the west. There is nothing more contradictory and paradoxical than to see so many young Chinese men and women (the creme de la creme) flocking to UK and American universities every year just to attend these decadent western universities and to immerse themselves in the western decadent culture that is responsible for the ‘biased’ news reporting that spurts forth from agencies such as the BBC and the CNN.

    Why are they not turning to their own universities? Why are they not pursuing their PhD’s at BeiDa which is supposed one of the most reputable universities in the world? Is it because there is little academic freedom? is it because that they do not see a viable option in a country where just nearly twenty years ago a group of university students in a place called Tiananmen had their idealism pummeled and beaten into the ground?

    This is not about being anti-China. This is about giving the Tibetans,Uighurs, Chinese farmers and peasants, Christians, catholics and all those living outside the comfortable metropolitan areas (with good internet connections) a chance to have a say in the way they live their lives. This is about groups of people being marginalised and having to face a Goliath known as the state and bureaucracy.

    China is an exquisite and beautiful place and the people unique. But that is not to say that the government there is perfect and because of the fact that it is such a huge country, a single stroke of the party apparatchik’s pen will effect the lives of millions of people. I am just saying that there is something fundamentally wrong with this. So please people, don’t get caught up in nationalist arguments, stick to the issue. Nationalist fervour does nothing but cloud rational and logical arguments.

  200. hutchrun says:

    `You talk like a typical Western media mouthpiece.`

    By the same token, I accuse you of supporting genocide in Darfur, supplying arms to Assamese and Naxalite rebels, to propping up Mugabe regime etc etc

    `As though Chinese are not individuals, have no feelings, and are unable to protest spontaneously or in an organizes way!`

    I never said Chinese have no feelings. If that is your inference, then you are an extremely emotional fellow and unable to think rationally. Which is one damn good reason M`sia itself is such a mess that people like you propagate.

    `Anything that is done by China is slanted by the Western media.`

    Only an idiot would sell that line of the Communist Party (which is also the BN line). Lenin called them `Useful Idiots`.

  201. quote: I agree with Oyster that Tibet should have referendum within Tibet ,not within China. the sovereign country which Tibet is part of . All Chinese not allow to vote, only Tibetans can vote. Tibet should have referendum every year or for that matter every week until they get their independence. China should also invite President Carter and make sure he have permenant residence there because referendum is being held every week.That will be fair.

    how about like translated to this – All non-bumi not allow to vote, only bumi can vote …… how does this feel to you then ?

    malaysia (AAB?) should play global player here to become famous, just tell that china president to become like benevolent TAR and give independent to tibet just like malaysia to singapura ? everybody happy then!

  202. desert storm says:

    For the good of Malaysia, I think China should annex Malaysia and send all those stupid racists/ trouble makers/ corrupt Umno/Bnputras to the deserts playing with camels.

  203. tv3 / 8tv / ntv7 probably will screen in upcoming movie slot:

    little buddha
    kundun ( i still remember the movie poster when i’m secondary skool)
    7 yrs in tibet…

    shiok……

  204. ah long says:

    How come all of a sudden everybody want to talk about Tibet? Whether Tibet part of China or become independent would not affect any of our lives, so who gives a rat’s arse.

    All of us should spend our time chasing the almighty dollar and worry about the enviroment and our family instead of worrying about a few greedy monks.

    I ask those pro Tibet people, if Tibet was to be granted self rule or independence, who is going to govern that country?

    Those monks??? The Emperor Dalai Lama? Will it be better or worse than Chinese rule?

    I don’t know.

  205. Malaysian Monk says:

    Seems like Susan & Oster aka Alex aka bnsupport aka ah long etc.. etc … are now using a tsunami approach to give the impression there is a wave of anti-China free tibet readers on this Blog whereas it wasn’t the case before. Change of tactics, Oster?

    TCHRD – unethical, unprincipled, double standard bunch of monkeys!

  206. hutchrun says:

    The uprising of large sections of the Tibetans against what they perceive as the Han colonisation of their traditional homeland and suppression of their Buddhist religion, which started in Lhasa on March 10, 2008, and has been continuing since then in various forms, has been planned and orchestrated by Tibetan youth located in different parts of the world. Hundreds of Tibetan youth living in different democratic countries, who had never met each other and who came to know each other only through Internet chat rooms and discussion groups, pooled their ideas together and decided to take advantage of the year of the Beijing Olympics to launch a movement for Tibetan independence and democracy under the leadership of the Tibetan Youth Congress (TYC).

    Even if the movement is ultimately crushed after a few weeks by China’s Neo Red Guards, who are dictating the policy on Tibet, with the help of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA), the third Tibetan Uprising of 2008— the earlier two having taken place in the 1950s and the 1980s— will go down in history as the first people’s revolution made possible by the power of the Internet’s connectivity. This revolution might be crushed ultimately by the PLA, but neither the PLA nor the Chinese intelligence will be able to eradicate this power.

    The Chinese as well as His Holiness and his advisers are worried over the dilution of their control over the youth and its implications for the future of Tibet. His Holiness was in favour of only a peaceful movement coinciding with the Olympics in support of the ethnic and religious rights of the Tibetans. He did not want an anti-Beijing Olympics movement, but young Tibetan boys and girls, wielding the power of the Internet, turned it into a global movement against the Beijing Olympics. His repeated appeals against any attempts to sabotage the Olympics have fallen on deaf ears till now.

  207. hutchrun says:

    The beginning of the patriotic campaign was state-inspired and directed, but after a few days, it assumed a momentum, direction and flavour of its own. There were indications of a xenophobia and all the controls, which the Chinese State had been exercising on the use of the Internet, started showing signs of melting away. The moderators nominated by the Ministry of Public Security to moderate this Internet-based campaign and to prevent it from taking directions which could be detrimental to the Chinese State, found themselves unable to moderate effectively.

    Fears that the exercise in controlled Cyber Psywar launched by the Ministry could turn into an uncontrollable exercise in Cyber Democracy with criticism of not only the Tibetans and their foreign supporters, but also of the Chinese leadership itself for letting itself be taken by surprise have caused the Chinese authorities to try to apply brakes on the campaign. The Chinese are also worried that the mounting anti-foreigner feelings as a result of this Internet-based campaign might lead to unpleasant incidents against foreigners during the Olympics.

  208. hutchrun says:

    BEIJING, China — Islamic terrorists planned to attack Beijing, Shanghai and other Chinese locations with poisonous gas and explosives to sabotage the Summer Olympic Games, China announced Thursday.

    Chinese authorities arrested 35 suspects during a 10-day series of raids that ended on Sunday, according to a statement from the Ministry of Public Security.

  209. hutchrun says:

    In the last 50 years, colonial policies of the communist Chinese authorities turned East Turkistan into one of the most backward regions in the world. Majority of Uighurs living in the East Turkistan are farmers engaged mostly in grain and cotton cropping based on primitive technologies. Their average annual income is less than 100 U.S. dollars.

    The most serious problem that the Uighurs in East Turkistan face today is the racial cleansing conducted by the Chinese imperialists, that is, the problem of mere existence and survival of Uighurs as an ethnic people in the world. The Chinese government is determined to turn the Uighurs into a minority ethnic group on their own land and to finally assimilate them into the Chinese majority by the draconian birth control policy and intensifying population transfer of Chinese to East Turkistan.

    http://www.uygur.org/enorg/h_rights/report_2001.html

  210. kittykat46 says:

    Haiyah , One Fella, so many nicks aaa……I thought got one billion supporters one….like that, how can ?

  211. hutchrun says:

    Haha that`s what be a multiple disorder personality.

  212. free sos damansara school says:

    Aiya! loony! Forget your free Tibet issue. Why don’t you take up the free SOS Damansara school which had been closed by Kerismuddin 8 years ago?

    The SOS boys and girls will be grateful to you since you are a caring/ loving Human Rights activist.

  213. tibet boy says:

    This free Tibet thing will not materialize even for the next millennium. With the Qinghai-Lahsa Sky-Railway, the Han Chinese would infiltrate Tibet by the thousands/ millions and very soon the monks would be reduced to a tiny segment of the Tibetan population and will be assimilated into the Chinese culture which is much more superior than Tibetan culture.

    The Tibetans will not regret being assimilated into the Han’s culture.

    The teaching of Buddha is compatible to the Chinese culture.

    So rant and rave if you want, Tibet=China and China=Tibet with or without Dalai Lama/ Damai Baru.

  214. kittykat46 says:

    “Chinese culture which is much more superior than Tibetan culture”

    Yah, that’s why I part company with all the PRC apologists.

    I’m ethnic Chinese, OK. My ancestors came from Guandong, Hainan and Fujian.
    But I absolutely do not subscribe to Chinese Racial or Cultural superiority.
    That way lies the roots of racism.

  215. Harrison bin Hansome says:

    Tibet was never part of China. For those who have the ideologies of anti Jewish and Americans without any justifications to merit any mention whenever the plight of the Tibetans and National League for Democracy under Aung Sann Syu Kyi’s human-right were plundered, murdered, mauled and raped are tawdry hypocrites. You know who you are.

    Tibet Wikipedia:-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet

    Scott Thong’s perspective:-http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/81724

  216. sloone says:

    EXCUSE ME,
    MALAYSIAN MONK AKA RAJA AKA SUREFIRE AKA KILL SUSAN AKA KILL OSTER AND MANY MANY OTHERS
    YOU ARE THE IMPOSTER WITH MANY NICKS
    TRYING TO GIVE THE SENSE THAT THEY ARE MANY ANTI-TIBET COMMMENTATORS
    YOU ARE A LIAR
    YOU ARE ONE AND THE SAME PERSON
    AND I AM BANNING YOU FROM THIS BLOG!

    HAVE NO PITY ON THE LIKES OF YOU.

    GOODBYE!

    PS. I CHECKED YOUR IP ADD, SO DONT BE SMART. LOOK AT SOME OF YOUR EXAMPLES HERE:

    BlastSusan4 | IP: 60.48.213.244

    Susan Loone’s Blog – Another MSM.

    Excluding views and replies not conforming to hers!

    Unrepentant. Hypocritical. Propaganda slander machine.

    Let the world know for what it is worth.

    Hypocrite! Slef righteuos holy cow!

    Author : Surefire57 (IP: 60.48.213.244 , 244.213.48.60.jb01-home.tm.net.my)
    E-mail :
    URL :
    Whois : http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl?queryinput=60.48.213.244
    Comment:
    Yeah .. why did you remove my reply to hutchrun?

    Author : Kill Oster (IP: 60.48.213.244 , 244.213.48.60.jb01-home.tm.net.my)
    E-mail :
    URL :
    Whois : http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl?queryinput=60.48.213.244
    Comment:
    Susan .. you are a woeful bias activist blogger … no different from the regimes you flay against … freedom of expression .. to reply … is not your strong point … in fact, you are what you protest against .. you deny the right of others to give their view points or reply … self righteuos holy cow!

    Author : Raja (IP: 60.48.213.244 , 244.213.48.60.jb01-home.tm.net.my)
    E-mail :
    URL :
    Whois : http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl?queryinput=60.48.213.244
    Comment:
    Oster, stop using so many pseudonyms to deluge the Blog with your posts. Quite obvious that you have changed your tactic and making it look like there are many anti-China pro-Tibet readers here.

    You are a wanker and still is!

    Come … let me help you .. there are more places where you can sodomize .. plenty mee soto too … come with me to Jln Alor .. you wil love all the arse-holes there! I am just concerned for you …. really..

    Author : Raja (IP: 60.48.213.244 , 244.213.48.60.jb01-home.tm.net.my)
    E-mail :
    URL :
    Whois : http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl?queryinput=60.48.213.244
    Comment:
    Oster, stop using so many pseudonyms to deluge the Blog with your posts. Quite obvious that you have changed your tactic and making it look like there are many anti-China pro-Tibet readers here.

    You are a wanker and still is!

    Come … let me help you .. there are more places where you can sodomize .. plenty meesoto too … come with me to Jln Alor .. you wil love all the arse-holes there! I am just concerned for you …. really..

  217. Harrison bin Hansome says:

    Oops, comments awaiting moderation. meaning some “rascals” are around to
    pollute this famous blog. You did the right thing Susan. 🙂

  218. sloone says:

    Kitty Kat,
    Notice the nick “raja” and the place “jalan alor”.
    remember a previously banned imposter?
    evil dies hard !

  219. sloone says:

    HERE YOU ARE IMPOSTER, I ALLOW YOU YOUR FREEDOM OF SPEECH!

    BlastSusan4 | IP: 60.48.213.244

    Susan Loone’s Blog – Another MSM.

    Excluding views and replies not conforming to hers!

    Unrepentant. Hypocritical. Propaganda slander machine.

    Let the world know for what it is worth.

    Hypocrite! Slef righteuos holy cow!

    Not Spam — Apr 22, 10:32 AM — [ View Post ]

    BlastSusan3 | IP: 60.48.213.244

    Susan Loone’s Blog – Another MSM.

    Excluding views and replies not conforming to hers!

    Unrepentant. Hypocritical. Propaganda slander machine.

    Let the world know for what it is worth.

    Hypocrite!

    Not Spam — Apr 22, 10:31 AM — [ View Post ]

    BlastSusan2 | IP: 60.48.213.244

    Susan Loone’s Blog is no diffrent from the Mainstream Media now.

    Hypocrite!

    Not Spam — Apr 22, 10:29 AM — [ View Post ]

    BlastSusan1 | IP: 60.48.213.244

    I am given to understand you have been excluding replies to anti-China free Tibet writers.

    So the true color is revealed. Susan loone’s Blog is a just another Western media mouthpiece slandering China and her people.

    Shame on you!

    Not Spam — Apr 22, 10:27 AM — [ View Post ]

  220. bulldog says:

    kittykitty,

    You are just a ‘manja’ cat good for nothing but eat, sleep and fool around with other straying cats. Yeah! Sometimes you think you are a rat.

    You are just a disgrace to the Chinese and no point dealing with a traitor like you.

    Your ancestors would be shamed for having a stray cat like you who is not proud of your root.

    You are nothing but a whimp and with you around in this loone web-blog, very soon loony will have to close ‘shop’.

  221. hutchrun says:

    Oooo I love dat cat.

  222. susan loone says:

    LOOK HERE PEOPLE, THE SO CALLED PRO-CHINA SUPPORTERS – THEY ARE ALL ONE AND THE SAME PERSON. WHAT DO YOU CALL SOMEONE LIKE THIS??? PLEASE LAH … IT MAKES ME SICK!!!!!!

    Raja
    118.100.103.120

    Plumber
    118.100.110.198

    Watcher
    118.100.110.198

    Surefire57
    118.100.98.226

    Oster, you pea-brained kindergarten level “intellectual” sod, you are nothing but an apologist for the bias CNN, BBC and other Western mass medias. And that makes you greatly suspect as a CIA paid monkey.

    My word, how long the tentacles of CIA!!

    Jane Doe
    118.100.98.226

    Yeah, Susan, why are you supporting the CIA sponsored global campaign China? Seems the british MI6 and the French intelligence is also invloved. Why? Can’t you see the bigger picture?

    Ah Sang
    118.100.103.120

    Ya! Chee-Tzin man!!

    Freedom Man
    118.100.103.120

    Doc No
    118.100.103.120

    surefire57
    118.100.103.120

    Somebody shut up this claptrap Oster!

    I think he has no life and need to seek excitement here! Ha Ha!

    ‘Lil dick oster wanna play!!

    Hamid
    118.100.103.120

    Looks like this Oster chap is suspect.

    His interference with this blog leads me to surmise he is an anti-Chinese arse-hole. The pattern is not dissimilar to the Western mass media like CNN, BBC, etc.. using this opportunity to bash China.

    Bugger off mister! We don’t need no American imperialist agents hanging around these sites!

    Kill Oster
    118.100.103.120

    Yeah, this oster chap is just mangling everybody’s say. A lot of cheap shots, rubbish arguments just to score points, shouting down every one. Garbage mouth!

    No doubt about it; He’s a bloody CIA paid agent; part of the “Free-Tibet” campaign. Why don’t you just f***k off and let people express their opinions without your over-weaning ego interferring with everybody’s right to freedom of opinion?

    Truly a nut-case!

    AND MORE AND MORE AND MORE……………

  223. FLing says:

    There are so much you can take when come to violent protestor. Do you blame the police to act violently. I heard all the cry about people shot by the PLA.

    Doesn’t anyone care about those innocents by stander that were burned to death by these so call freedom protestors? How about their rights? Is so easy to sit here and condemn this and that….

  224. Lallang exile says:

    Printed in The Washington Post:

    When we are billed to be the next Superpower, we are called The Threat.

    When we closed our doors, you smuggled drugs to open markets.

    When we embrace Free Trade, You blame us for taking away your jobs.

    When we were falling apart, You marched in your troops and wanted your
    fair share.

    When we tried to put the broken pieces back together again, Free Tibet

    you screamed, It Was an Invasion!

    When tried Communism, you hated us for being Communist.

    When we embrace Capitalism, you hate us for being Capitalist.

    When we have a billion people, you said we were destroying the planet.

    When we tried limiting our numbers, you said we abused human rights.

    When we were poor, you thought we were dogs.

    When we loan you cash, you blame us for your national debts.

    When we build our industries, you call us Polluters.

    When we sell you goods, you blame us for global warming.

    When we buy oil, you call it exploitation and genocide.

    When you go to war for oil, you call it liberation.

    When we were lost in chaos and rampage, you demanded rules of law.

    When we uphold law and order against violence, you call it violating

    human rights.

    When we were silent, you said you wanted us to have free speech.

    When we are silent no more, you say we are brainwashed-xenophobics.

    Why do you hate us so much, we asked.

    No, you answered, we don’t hate you.

    We don’t hate you either,

    But, do you understand us?

    Of course we do, you said,

    We have AFP, CNN and BBC’s…

    What do you really want from us?

    Think hard first, then answer…

    Because you only get so many chances.

    Enough is Enough, Enough Hypocrisy for This One World.

    We want One World, One Dream, and Peace on Earth.

    This Big Blue Earth is Big Enough for all of Us.

  225. hutchrun says:

    `We want One World, One Dream, and Peace on Earth.`

    On the way, not to worry.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7359258.stm

  226. jtduitirt says:

    Read the report below and ask yourself whether the Tibetans should thank their lucky balls/holes that they are under Chinese, and not Islamic, rule.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/04/21/begging.africa.ap/index.html

  227. Hunk says:

    I should suggest that the imposter should try Chow Kit to taste the Pondans delicacies. Extra special. Hahahahahahahahhaaha.

  228. Lallang exile says:

    Susan,

    What about Oster? Could you do a run on him as well. Would be interesting to know……….since he broke the record on your blog!!!Seems like he wrote the whole day and night without needed to sleep, unless perhaps it was a monitored, multiple commentator using the same name or opposite what u exposed.

    And, BTW, for goodness sake, don;t let this Tibetan madness get the better of you.

    We should focus on home issues, like the sad SOS children in damansara still waiting for their school. In fact, this is the best time to wrestle back rights taken away during the M era now that dear Badawi is bending over to please everybody.

    To each his own opininion (oster, you happy now?) but let’s debate in a gentlemanly manner and let’s stick to truth and ethics and not some dubious source like the TCHRD – oops, i’ve stepped on sue’s tail again!!!

    And, calling Hongkongers and Taiwanese when discussing issues pertinent to these two places does not make them non-Chinese.

    Like Penangite, Sarawakian, kelantanese, etc.

    Good Day,

    P/S The torch relay looked great in my beautiful KL

  229. oster says:

    @Lallang exile

    That’s all true, but again, missing the point.

    It’s NOT West versus China.

    It’s the fact that Tibetans cannot express their opinions on what future they want. Regardless of who is worse, the West or China, the main point is that Tibet cannot vote on their future and have no right to self-determination.

    It has nothing to do with the motives of the West or China.

    @FLing,

    Violent protestors must be brought to justice. Their action must be condemned.

    But it also doesn’t change the fact that Tibetans cannot express their opinions freely, or vote on their future.

    cheers

  230. People supporting the so-called free-Tibet referendum is akin to running a food court where every hawker is his own boss and his territory is but a pathetic cubicle and will not hesitate to retaliate for the simplest fault commited.

    People who support the solidarity of China and her land is akin to managing a big restaurant where sustenance is everybody’s responsibility.

    People who hide behind the veiled devil dressed in western propaganda are the corporate CEOs who are endowed to foment from the ground up so as to capitalise and rule.

    Such are the rules of the game on the uneven playing field and the choice is yours for the takings.

  231. oster says:

    garfield city Says:
    April 22, 2008 at 1:34 pm

    People supporting the so-called free-Tibet referendum is akin to running a food court where every hawker is his own boss and his territory is but a pathetic cubicle and will not hesitate to retaliate for the simplest fault commited.

    The comparison is moot, as the food stall was funded and built by some other party and rented by the hawkers.

    Tibet isn’t being rented by Tibetans from China.

    And no, I disagree with violent methods. That’s why I think a referendum, where the opinions can be gauged in a peaceful manner is the best solution.

    And no, it’s not a “free-Tibet referendum”, just a referendum. The choices available in the referendum should include “full union with China”, “one country, two systems”, “independence”.

    It’s not a referendum just on independence, but what choices do Tibetans think are best for Tibet.

    cheers

  232. Lallang exile says:

    Oster,

    don’t u need to take a nap at least? seems like u stayed up all night and day. Wow…………. like the dalai l, heh, with magical powers?

    gotta take my nap nap now……………………

  233. susan loone says:

    dear lallang;

    i did a check on all comments. rest assured, the one exposed are the only imposters so far. these people annoy me deeply. i had trouble like this too earlier. my regular commentators know them.

    i will continue to monitor comments.

  234. oster says:

    @Lallang exile,

    I have irregular sleep times. Let’s just say it’s a medical condition. Check my IP, there’ll be two, one when I post from my room, the other from the lab I work in. If you can identify the geographical location of it then you’ll see it’s in the same town.

    And no, it’s not about me being happy. I’m trying to insert some rationality and logic into the debate and remove the ad hominem elements. IMHO, it shouldn’t be about a fight between China and the West, but what Tibetans think is best for Tibet.

    I have thrown no personal insults around, and if anyone felt that something I said was insulting, point it out. I apologise for any hurt feelings.

    cheers

  235. Scott Thong says:

    Wow Susan, nice list of IP adds lol!

  236. taksin says:

    Dalai Lama is the greatest hypocrite. He said that he is only asking for autonomy but can’t stop his followers from seeking independence. The French sure love him and Paris is making him their honorary citizen. I would advise him to meet Jimmy Peanut Cutter who was responsible for the last Olympics boycott in Moscow and Los Angeles and seek a more non violent means to sabotage the Beijing Games. The West has denied China’s rights to the 2000 Olympics and are trying to do it again in 2008. China’s patience has its limit amd when the dragon breathes fire, you better beware.

  237. If one lives with the family in a glasshouse, will one throw stones to settle a dispute? If yes, God bless.

    It is usually the ill-hearted passers-by, who salivate for a free show, may instigate the family for a free-for-all.

    Try living in such a house, one may instantly realises its fragility. If this metaphor does not resonate well within oneself then it is once more, casting pearls b4 swine.

  238. sklee says:

    Susan,
    I do not agree with you.I think you read, perhaps, too many of the articles in propaganda websites sent to you.Tibet is part of China.Period.Western, especially American “support” for Tibetan Independence, is highly suspicious!I am forwarding some interesting websites which have many articles relating to Western interests in Tibet:
    http://www.indymedia.org. uk/en/2008/04/395803html
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8462
    http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/nts44532.htm
    http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/04/395803.html

  239. xiaoyao2 says:

    I have great respect for Tibetan cultures. But mixing religion with administrative power is always a problem. You can’t argue with religion.

    Also, a word of wisdom from Confucius : “巧言令色鲜矣仁”.

    Further, 六祖慧能曰 : “不是风动, 不是幡动, 仁者心动 !”.

    If the Tibetan violent protestors are Buddhism followers, then they certainly have done themselves a very bad name. They have lost even before they start.

  240. mimi says:

    http://nikpeterson.blogspot.com is a good reference site.

  241. iyyeo says:

    Why can’t we just seperate the Olympics which is a sports event from Politics…… sigh…….

    Let the politicians do their work, and let the sportsman and women do theirs.

    What good is it going to be by disrupting the Olympics? Is tibet going to get a referendum by all the protest? I just think that boycotting any Olympics is not the right way forward, instead I feel that talking would be much better. But if this is the case, then there will no more wars, no more human rights issue etc..

  242. One should not mix “Politics” with “Sports” and vice versa. This saying is true to the core.
    China is doing well in almost all aspects, so don’t tell me that they cannot handle the issue of settling the Tibetan issue. So let them resolve their own internal problems.
    China has a strong back-bone.It is only the Federal government of Malaysia, who is unable to resolve simple issues like giving a fair trial to the Atlantuya case – just because some high ranking Federal government ministers are involved. The World is quietly laughing at our Malaysian mentality.
    Well, our federal government really has damn thick skin.
    Denial of getting the 2/3rd majority is a true lesson to these up-studs who are arrogant, corrupt, non-transparent and … (hell too many to list out, lah!).
    For our future and our future generation’s future, ensure that BN only gets a 1/8th majority – VOTE FOR PR. MIC & MCA, who do not look after the rights and well-being of the Indians and Chinese in Malaysia do not deserve to be supported and kept alive. Back door and behind closed door negotiations are eye-wash tactics only – YES MEN of the UMNO BN.

  243. kiddokit says:

    I stand by Oster’s and Kittykat’s side. It appears those pro-China commenters do not know history — specifically, China’s and its imperialist march to subsume other smaller nations.

    Witness Mongolia. Witness Tibet. Those small countries undeserving of China’s attention, but invade them China did. After occupying Mongolia, China tried to introduce into Mongolia their own Chinese plant to feed animals and humans alike. But that plant was not meant to grow in the harsh Mongolian environment, resulting in crop failure leading to mass starvation of animals and humans. China forcibly nationalised them and outlawed their indigenious culture and practise. Locals are starved to hunger in the cold while Chinese soldiers occupying those countries are well-fed and clothed. Do I have to continue?

    And we have callous and heartless Malaysians giving stupid comments bordering on insulting the heritage of other Malaysian Chinese in this blog. I gotta hand it to both Oster and Kittykat for withstanding their inane chatter. Sorry I joined in pretty late into this thread.

    To those ignoramus Malaysians, go read books on China’s history. Not just from one author of one nationality, but many other authors from around the world who have written beautifully on China. Find out how the Mao Tze Tung stood by and allowed his Red Army to kill fellow Chinese and rout the country of its culture and historical artifacts. The single biggest slaughter of all mankind (millions of Chinese died), even bigger number than the deaths of a world war! But of course, a few millions of Chinese is but a drop of water in the huge ocean of Chinese population — hardly felt by the Chinese themselves, you may say.

  244. free free-tibet dissidents says:

    China is a super power and will be the overall champion in the Olympics. Tibet will be better of under China the new champion of the world/Olympics so stop dividing china.

    US and Western powers want to maintain their domination of the world. Only Russia and China can counter that greed of domination.

    Only idiots would support free Tibet issue and George Bush.

    The Americans are abandoning Bush and want him to be in Guantanamo detention camp. Are the free Tibet dissidents joining him also in Guantanamo detention camp?

    Why want to support an imperial warlord when China is helping the Tibetans and third world countries to live in a better life?

    If this is the wishes of the Chinese people, why want to sabotage their peaceful living/ dreams?

    By sabotaging the Olympic games is just helping Bush and western powers continuing raping the poor and miserable third world denizens.

    Bush is having his oil-field day everyday in Iraq would not mind to create troubles everywhere in the world so that he and his cohorts can escape indictments and continues his atrocities in Iraq with impunity.

    The free Tibet dissidents are just tools use by the US imperialists to maintain their supremacy/ domination in this world.

  245. iraqi boy says:

    Bush is an outright liar and the no:1 terrorist in the universe. Bush should be in Abu Ghraib prison serving time.

  246. pushbush says:

    keh keh keh keh…. love loving all the black gold in Iraq. Hng, 8 years should be long enough for me to pump all the oil I need.

    I hope there is still some oil left in Iraq’s oil fields after I left the white house… kah kah kah kah …..

  247. howard says:

    Hello asshole, don’t forget mine and Tony’s share also.

  248. free tibet diddidents says:

    Hi mates, we hope you don’t forget our sub/ sub-sub share when you get your shares.

  249. dead victims says:

    All these free Tibet dissidents are Bush’s & Nancy ‘s cohorts. They should be sent to jail together with Bush, Tony and Howard in Guantanamo detention camp.

  250. loonnee says:

    as long as I still can upload/ upgrade my web-site, I don’t mind joining Bush in Guantanamo…. ha ha ha ha

  251. Lallang exile says:

    Kidokit:

    Your statements:

    “I stand by Oster’s and Kittykat’s side. It appears those pro-China commenters do not know history — specifically, China’s and its imperialist march to subsume other smaller nations.”

    “And we have callous and heartless Malaysians giving stupid comments bordering on insulting the heritage of other Malaysian Chinese in this blog. I gotta hand it to both Oster and Kittykat for withstanding their inane chatter. Sorry I joined in pretty late into this thread.

    To those ignoramus Malaysians, go read books on China’s history. Not just from one author of one nationality.”

    Rules of the game:

    1) Don’t use fancy words like “ignoramous,: , :callous” etc, to show off your English ability. BTW, please check your grammar.

    2) Who is the mindless one now? You are no expert to make sweeping judgements on China and how the Chinese Communist Party overthrew the Nationalist warlords to form the new China.

    3) Have you seen or read or felt what it is like to be eating tree bark, leaves, mice and snakes? The peasants were so poor and impoverished that thousands died of hunger. Yes, hunger because the country was in chaos under the Natioanlists.

    4) Imperialist? Compare with UK, US, France, Spain, Portugal, etc and their colonising of Asia, the South Americas and Afirca. If China wanted to colonise, the whole SEA region would have been colonised 500 years ago before the angmohs reached our shores!!!

    You sound like an angmoh yourself!!! Fact is, China wasn’t interested in the rest of the world because it had everything it needed. The West wanted stuff like tea, silk porcelain, etc. They had to force China to open up and trade with them, using opium and of course gunpowder. Please get hold of a decent history text.

    5) And, please stay civil. Everybody is entitlted to their opinions. No calling names and belittling statements about other commentators.

    Ahhhhhhhhh Why am i wasting my time with u?

  252. Lallang exile says:

    Susan,

    i am really getting iritated by the likes of kidikot.

    Oster, for all his persistence, was civil and well mannered. He did not hurl insults at your commentators per se but kept to the debate.

    Please check and monitor kidikot’s ID – he sounds like a CIA or Kuomintang infiltrator.

    If so, your blog is so influential now that it warrants surveillance from them!

    Syabas Susan.

  253. beruk from pahang says:

    So after all the hullabaloo, what happens then?

    Tibet is still part of China and all the Tibetans are having fun/joy and have a much better/ comfortable life than all the Malaysians and Americans.

    China will still host the Olympic games come o8/o8/08 wining most of the gold, silver and bronze medals superseding the Americans as the overall Champion of Olympics- the supreme sports of the universe.

    Beat the Chinese in the fields, gym, courts, pools…. for all you can, but not cowardly on some foreign western streets.

    Do you think Malaysia will win a valueless bronze in Beijing Olympics? That’s where we stand in world standard and we are making noise here as if we are Olympic champions and China is at our mercy!

    Poorah! Malaysia can’t even beat Cambodia in football and yet we want to be championing the cause of Tibet.

    It’s just like smashing an egg against a monumental rock.

    Know thy strength, energy/ limitation/ boundary.

    All China has to do is just plot some co-ordination with a few finger tips, press a button, and Malaysia will be 300 ft below sea level with Kerishamuddin’s keris halfway out the sheath.

    What a joke with the Malaysians. Malaysians= Beruks have the cheek to teach the world/Olympics champions how to rule themselves….. ke ke ke ke ke ….. look at your miserable self in the mirror man…. sohai!

  254. ktemoc says:

    I wonder whether my mate kittykat 46, who is (1) pro PKR to a fault, (2) pro USA to a fault, (3) pro …😉 … to a fault, (4) virulently anti Dr M, etc etc etc could be the de facto man himself ke ke ke ke ke ke ke ke

    Susan please check his IP too hahahahahahahahhahahaaa muwhuaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

  255. Boyle Scott says:

    Come 1st May, let’s make Care Fores take care of themselves literally all over the world until France retrieve that made-in France sheep skin from the wolf of Tibet.

    Let there be no single soul come 1st May in the Care Fore super/hyper markets.

  256. Dear Lallang exile & beruk from pahang, welllllll done!

    This is the Olympics 2008, some people have conveniently forgotten that they are Asians (unless they actually are the Whites hiding in the shadows). Instead of feeling proud and standing tall, they cringe to devious propaganda of the West in a cowardly form of “free-Tibet” sloganeering.

    History: How deep is their understanding of motherland
    China. 100 years, 200 or more than 1000?

    The Games: Well said here, beruk. China has been secretly
    training hard for more medals. US and the
    other Whites probably are too scared to
    compete for they have been too distracted in
    the Middle East.

    Referendum : Do “they” actually understand the severity
    of such an implication? Sigh…….

  257. Harrison says:

    Ktemoc,

    I have left a commentery on your blog yesterday-The Tibet Thing ya…K? No?
    Who is anti-Mahathir by the way? =)

  258. kittykat46 says:

    Ktemoc,
    My current IP is actually in Kepala Batas, Penang…..kekekekekekek…..

    Next time I log into your blog it may be an IP in Russia (my favourite one) or China or Japan….

    IPs don’t mean anything to an ex-hacker like me lah…

  259. iyyeo says:

    “…one needs to remember what happened in Moscow Olympics, 1980 and at Los Angeles in the next edition of the mega event four years later. The Moscow boycott triggered the counter-boycott in Los Angeles. There is no end to such things, and the only casualty is sports,” warned Gurbux. (Indian sports athelete)

    And there is the reason why I feel that this should just be about sports. By boycotting and holding protests, you are going to achieve nothing. As far as I can see in the United Nations, NOBODY is really pressuring very hard on China on Tibet. I believe that the UN is the best place to pressure China yet, I don’t see it happening.

    So what is actually happening? Brown and Sachozy boycotting the opening ceremony of the games but then, not pushing for a STRONG referandam anything in the UN. I don’t see any Europeans, Americans, Africans and Asians pushing for anything. Politics, politics, politics….. it is never about really caring for the people of Tibet.

  260. sloone says:

    WHY IS THERE NEED TO USE SO MANY DIFFERENT IDs??? YOU KNOW HOW I DETEST SUCH IMPOSTERS. BANNED!

    free tibet diddidents
    freefreetibet@yahoo.com | 218.111.16.42

    howard
    freefreetibet@yahoo.com | 218.111.16.42

    pushbush
    freefreetibet@yahoo.com | 218.111.16.42

    iraqi boy
    freefreetibet@yahoo.com | 218.111.16.42

  261. freewave says:

    Yep, use the proper channel and do what you may in the name of human rights. Leave the Olympics alone and stop making a havoc around the world!

  262. ktemoc says:

    Farish Noor has just published an article on the whys and wherefores, and westren hypocrisy of the current China Bashing – I posted his article on my blog http://ktemoc.blogspot.com/2008/04/farish-noor-on-china-bashing.html

    kk46, you’re most welcome😉 and please bring along that reincarnation of R Rajan kakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakaa

    wits0 matey u r included😉

  263. oster says:

    garfield city Says:
    April 23, 2008 at 10:58 am

    Dear Lallang exile & beruk from pahang, welllllll done!

    This is the Olympics 2008, some people have conveniently forgotten that they are Asians (unless they actually are the Whites hiding in the shadows). Instead of feeling proud and standing tall, they cringe to devious propaganda of the West in a cowardly form of “free-Tibet” sloganeering.

    I greatly disagree with this. Are we to be defined solely by our race? If another Asian transgresses, should I oppose the white man who says something about it?

    The brotherhood of humanity, in my humble opinion, far encompasses race.

    Again, the future of Tibet, in my mind, should not be decided by China or America but by Tibetans themselves.

    If they choose to remain with China, then so be it. Free Tibet activists should then stop agitating. The same for every other region on earth that may wish for stronger rights to self-determination.

    A boycott, in this sense, is counter-productive. One shouldn’t use forceful methods in pursuit of a goal that is patently free of force (elections in a referendum).

    On the issue of sports and politics, I disagree. There is no absolute rule that says they should not mix, apart from “just because”. The concept of sports themselves are human creations and thus highly subjective. No one can impose an absolute (“sports and politics should not mix”) on subjective matters. That’s also why we can’t go around imposing our religion’s subjective perception of right and wrong as absolutes upon others, who may have different subjective notions of morality.

    cheers

  264. wits0 says:

    Mullah KT: “kk46, you’re most welcome😉 and please bring along that reincarnation of R Rajan kakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakaa”

    I think the laugh is on yourself. Are you not suggesting that R Rajan is dearly departed? You can’t reincarnate until you are gone! What an anachronous expression which you’ve also committed besides sounding even libellous. LOL!

  265. iyyeo says:

    Nothing to do with Tibet but basically about the same propaganda that the West are using on the Olympics. I thought should share this with you guys. Anyway, I feel that the star are starting to improve (much much less bias before the elections):-

    From the star: A talk by Dr M in Cuba
    http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2008/4/23/nation/21033812&sec=nation

    Anyway, Man Utd vs Barcelona today. Go Go Man Utd:) –

  266. Dear Oster,

    I m a more down-to-earth character and if life is gonna be alright with me, I don’t rebel bcoz I believe in Karma ie. to mean I would ask myself “what if I next re-incarnate into that same thing that I have hated so much?” Yes, that also means I shall suppress my dislike for you and that Monk.
    You are not an Earthling bcoz your brand of politics and referendum mentality belongs to the Moon. I m also seeing you as one grown-up child in a family of more siblings, young, strong and healthy now, instigating all to detach from family attachment and worst of all is, you are almost on the verge of demanding your mother to prove she indeed is your Mother. Your mother refuses to budge to your tantrums, and you are now recruiting the whole neighbourhood for a showdown with your mom.

    Now, we can be forgiven if we prefer to be childless.

  267. BrightEyes says:

    ^ GC, you’re not Jesus or Confucius. So don’t speak in parables here…

    (quote: beruk said)…
    “All China has to do is just plot some co-ordination with a few finger tips, press a button, and Malaysia will be 300 ft below sea level with Kerishamuddin’s keris halfway out the sheath.”

    Don’t get too arrogant like the Yankees. Mighty China couldn’t even defeat Vietnam in 1979 (in just a month of fighting, it lost half as many troops as the Americans in the whole Vietnam War). And Taiwan is still Taiwan…

    Anyway, back to the topic… the political status of Tibet & politics within China itself is certainly not gonna change for the better during this Olympics season. But it’ll get there, eventually. Just give China some time and who knows… perhaps in a few years she’ll be having elections & a freer political atmosphere.

    Don’t say its impossible. Did it happen to any of you before the March 08 elections, that the opposition would win not just one… but FIVE states?

  268. ktemoc says:

    wits0 matey, isn’t R Rajan ‘gone’ from the blogosphere, hence he has ‘departed’, and his goyim reincarnation has emerged ke ke ke, I see that you miss him – I remember you Kingston Trio (+ hutchrun) and your attempt to continuously hang Tom Dooley hahahahahahhahahahahahahaahaha😉

  269. Scott Thong says:

    Everyone is biased and a hypocrite… They refuse to admit their biasedness. Especially when it comes to Islam and the West, it can summarized as:

    West = Can do no good
    America = Even worse
    Israel = Whatever good comes out of there, is part of a plot to take over the world through sneaky Zionist protocols

    Islam = Can do no wrong
    Palestine = Whatever bad comes out of there, it’s okay ‘cos they’re helping us thwart the evil Zionist protocols

    Except me. I admit I have my biases.

  270. wits0 says:

    Scott, you just described the injected approved ethos from our great educational system. Besides that of the racist supremacist sponsored by umno, e.g., like the “sedar negara’ thingy after SPM and b4 metriculation, i.e.

  271. BrightEyes, you are confused. Parables? No. Metaphors? Yes. If you bothered to read my earlier comments. This whole topic is about letting that torch pass without subjecting it to further abuse. The trouble begins is when so-called “Peace-loving propagandists” link the auspicious event with politics and some smart people just believe that by a stroke of a pencil, peace will prevail in China/Tibet.

    Once again, BrightEyes you are even more confused when you compare me to Confucius and Jesus. As I have just declared earlier that I m a downtoearth person and my wishes are simple whereas that 2 gentlemen are immortals who still trying to save the world and for that reason alone, their abode is now in Heaven.

    Curiously speaking, IF that 2 gentlemen were to rule China today, what will happen next. In this modern world, we have to tread very cautiously and not naively, for a spark may lead to a holocaust. Also fortunately for China, YOU and OSTER are not Presidents. Otherwise China will become an ANGEL and no more an Earthling (this is metaphorically speaking, I hope you can decipher it, God bless).

    Mercy to Criminals is Cruelty to People. Think.

  272. oster says:

    #
    garfield city Says:
    April 23, 2008 at 9:08 pm

    Dear Oster,

    I m a more down-to-earth character and if life is gonna be alright with me, I don’t rebel bcoz I believe in Karma ie. to mean I would ask myself “what if I next re-incarnate into that same thing that I have hated so much?” Yes, that also means I shall suppress my dislike for you and that Monk.

    You are not an Earthling bcoz your brand of politics and referendum mentality belongs to the Moon. I m also seeing you as one grown-up child in a family of more siblings, young, strong and healthy now, instigating all to detach from family attachment and worst of all is, you are almost on the verge of demanding your mother to prove she indeed is your Mother. Your mother refuses to budge to your tantrums, and you are now recruiting the whole neighbourhood for a showdown with your mom.

    Now, we can be forgiven if we prefer to be childless.

    First of all, why take my personality into this. I do not recall talking about the personalities of commentators but merely commenting on the ideas they put forward. If I have, I will admit that it is a grave mistake to resort to ad hominem, and will apologise profusely. My personality has nothing to do with the objective truth of logical integrity of my opinions, so I hope that it can be left at the door.

    But I do feel compelled to reply to your views of my personality. It’s probably my ego pulsing. First of all, I do believe in some form of karma, except that I believe one gets this balance in this afterlife and not when one is reincarnated.

    Second of all, no, I’m pass the detachment phase that teens go through. I’m now at the stage where increased perspective makes me realise that what matters is not the circumstances of you birth but the context of what has transpired in the past. I will not, for example, be loyal to my family simply because they are my family, but because my family has been so kind to me without expecting reciprocation.

    Applying the same analogy to your rigid Asian loyalty, should I be blindly loyal to all Asians disregarding the context, where in this case, the context is a selfishly imposed suppression of opinions because the imposers feel that it is in their subjective opinion, “right”? I think not.

    The same analogy can be applied to your emotive argument about me questioning my mother’s authenticity. Regardless of whether she turns out to be my real mother, I will always consider her my mother because she raised me selflessly through all these years. My respect and love is not accorded to her simply because she is my mother, but because she is a good mom.

    The same goes for the Asian analogy, where I will not defend China simply because they are as yellow as I am, but because of the context of their actions.

    At the same time, my views being in agreement with some white people does not mean that I necessarily support their actions either. Do not mistake correlation and causality.

    As a cheap-shot ad hominem remark, one who has the gumption to call oneself “a more down-to-earth character” isn’t really.

    My point, as always, stands, that I believe, with numerous arguments heretofore mentioned, that the referendum is the least adverse solution to the Tibetan question.

    cheers

  273. Oster,
    To your mind my words sound analogous and it is now no wonder why you and BrightEyes are oozing like tearyeyes.
    NO! Please don’t draw parallels bcoz I don’t want to hurt anybody. I say “metaphors” bcoz I m talking with tongue in cheek. Do you know how to define “politics”? And I dare say NOT MANY PEOPLE KNOW. Listen here, politics is the same as the chicken and the egg simile. There is no beginning and has no end. So what is the best politics? It is suitability and conformity, not necessarily congeniality. That is already next to Utopia, let us not ask for more.

    That’s why I say,don’t mix and confuse politics with sports. Let’s imagine if our legs and arms are misguided,we will all be walking upsidedown,right? And once again I appeal to all to let the torch passby in peace and whatever referendum, let it rest in peace. If anyone still insists on referendums, I BEG you, go to America, help the Indians be they RED, BLUE OR BROWN, and probably you will next join the queue in Heaven and I promise you I won’t want to be your neighbour up there.

  274. oster says:

    @garfield

    Politics and sports are both artificial and subjective human constructs in which there are no absolute definitions, just subjective ones.

    So when one says “don’t mix politics and sports,” one really means “don’t mix politics (according to my subjective interpretation) and sports (according to my subjective interpretation)”.

    So when you ask me, do I really know what defines politics, the logical answer is that I know how I define it, but not necessarily how you do.

    Yes I insist on a referendum, and I don’t need to help the Native Americans just because I do. No reason for that. There are too many fights to fight, and I choose Tibet. Not doing this for heaven either, just my perception of right and wrong compelling me.

    cheers

  275. tauplim says:

    I have spent nigh on 5 hours (that is a long time for a single issue) this morning researching the Tibetan issue on the internet, and come to the conclusion that I do not possess enough facts to make an assertion about whether the pro-Tibet or the pro-China arguments prevail.

    Personally, I think that the truth falls somewhere in between. That is not to say that I am fence-sitting, but rather that I am not sure of what are facts/fallacies to enable me to come to a conclusion.

    Your degree of closeness (to the topic) is also dependent on whom you associate with – a Tibetan exile, a Chinese national, a western friend, and your own political mileage. Each comes with its own perspectives, observations and belief systems.

    There is also an old saying that if you look at a leopard (yellow the black spots) through a tube, your interpretation of the leopard depends on what you see at the time.

    I think we are all agreed on the basic tenets of human rights – expression, assembly and self-determination (the last of which Oster so persistently states here).

    Desirable as it sounds, when a saga of righting and wronging spans centuries, it is often very difficult to say, “Forget about x years ago, we are concerned with the here in and now.” The series of cause and effects over such a span of time means that everyone has a point, depending on where that starting point is.

    When you talk about human rights, you cannot ignore the concept of different kinds “containerships” for example:

    – nation, province, town
    – nation, ethnicity
    – nation, religion

    Does one of the above take precedence of the other? I don’t know. What if self-determination of one of the above is at odds with the other two or three. Which one should have a bigger say, because they are all “self-determination”.

    How many of us here can claim to have been to Tibet and/or China, and understand the sentiments of those actors at play? I wager that very few of us if any has that first-hand experience.

    A recent “BBC Dispatches” piece shows from a distance, two political dissenters hiking across the mountains to trek their escape to India being gunned down. This is appalling.

    A clip (by CCTV) interviewed an ethnic Tibetan who deplored the acts of the rioters. On a related segment, a doctor (ethnic Tibetan) was visibly beaten up by the mob because he was trying to ferry an injurred Han with his injurred kid (repeatedly stepped on the chest by the mob) in the ambulance.

    A Youtube posting showing western news and internet articles using photographs and pictures of non-related riot scenes (Nepal) and reporting them as Tibetan Chinese police brutality.

    A movie clip (don’t know the source) showing a few bodies of Tibetans punctuated by bullet holes (at the time the official Chinese media said that they did not use guns).

    The BBC Dispatch piece showing undercover filming of heavy guards and check points, and showing a forcibly re-settled Tibetan lady stating that she preferred to be living in her old nomadic ways rather than couped up in an enforced housing estate with no means of earning an income.

    Another lady (as above piece) saying that she was forcibly sterilised because she had too many children (note that this applies to all of China, not just Tibet).

    There is a 73-year old guy called Li Au, who is a well-known Taiwanese historian (in the Asian scene). I have a lot of respect for this guy – he speaks his mind, and argues intelligently (intelligibly?), and only sides on his belief regardless of the political spectrum.

    He has a number of clips (with documentary proof) indicating that the whole Tibetan theocracy was inhumane up to the time when the current (14th) Dalai Lama took his role (some time between 1911 and 1959). 5 pct of Tibetan owns everything, and the rest, nothing. This 95% led their lives in servitude (read slaves) to the other 5%, in a manner much, much worse than the European feudalism in the 12th century.

    I am not going to detail the horrendous deeds (if true) done to these poor 95% of Tibetans because it is really sickening but it involves torture, de-skinning, amputation for people who do not go along the wishes of the Dalai Lama or their cohorts of priests. You see visuals of human skulls being used as fluid containers, and skins of children (yes!) for ornamentation in the homes of the 5%.

    Now, what if – yes, what if, by “returning” Tibets to the same Dalai Lama theocracy rule and again the same doctrine above happens? Can you say that “well, if that is what the people want, then so be it?”. Bear in mind that these poor, illiterate souls who make up the 95% have never known anything better. They believe that the Dalai Lama is the utmost supreme. In the palace where the Dalai Lama releases his stools, there is a hole that drains down to the people below, who scrambles to gather these excrements because they believe that it is a magic potion that can cure their ills (“ling dan”).

    If that is true, I seriously think why any one would want to promote the return to that kind of society.

    Mind, I understand the “holier than thou” argument. Who are we to judge what is good or bad for others? If that is what they want (de-skinned, amputated, eat excrement, teen-raped to entertain visiting dignitaries) that is their choice.

    Really?

    Two comedians on an American TV show rather light-heartedly, graphically illustrated the above with a scale, and concluded that the current (PRC) solution is the lesser of the two evils for our hapless Tibetan world denizens.

    As we progress in our culture, certain practices are no longer acceptable (self-chosen or not). The Chinese bound-foot and the eunuch are cases in point.

    That is why I feel that single-issue, broad-brushed arguments (for eg, Oster’s self-determination maxim) cannot be the answer to the problem. It is made worse by the fact that we all possess partial knowledge of the situation and lack of verification of the allegations.

    China is concerned with her own survival. There are 56 (that is the official claim) ethnic minorities aside from the Han’s, one of which, includes the Tibetans which has a population of about 2.6m (cannot prove that).

    One of the posts states correctly that China has been humiliated by the series of colonialism along its coastal areas in the mid 1800’s. As a child, I used to remember the saying on a sign in front of a Chinese restaurant in Shanghai during the colonial days, “Dogs and Chinese are not allowed”.

    If you understand the psyche of the Chinese since PRC’s reign after WW2, they have avowed never to allow themselves to be humiliated again by anyone else in this world – ever.

    Regardless of whether you agree or disagree, this is the context in which you have to view the current Tibetan situation. Additionally most of the world (the UN) today recognises that Tibet is an integral part of China (nation, province containership), so any form of reasoning without this starting point is a nice-to-have. Even the (vocal) French, American and British acknowledges this fact. We should be debating where the situation should go from here. Any other scenarios, though utopian, cannot change the current status quo.

    Turning to the issue of the Beijing Olympics torch possession (which was the point of Susan’s blog entry), I believe that boycotting or remonstrating the China government is a wrong move, given the foregoing.

    Sebastian Coe and Paula Radcliffe who are both exemplary ex-Olympians gold medallers from the UK, subscribe to that. I agree with Seb that the Olympic movement speaks much louder in highlighting to China the need for human compassion and restraint than boycotting the Olympics.

    One last thing I wish to draw from my experience – that of “assumptions”. Heaven knows how many times I have suffered from this thing called “assumption”.

    Take a simple example.

    When I was going to India last year, for a two-week business visit, I asked my business associate to make sure that the hotel that I am staying had gym facilities, because it was important to me.

    My associate confirmed back that there was a gym in the hotel that I was going to lodge for the two weeks.

    When I arrived at the hotel in India, there was no gym.

    I challenged my associate as to why he told me that there was a gym in the hotel.

    He said that his partner told me that there was one, though he (my associate) did not check it out himself.

    I challenged his partner on the same issue, and his reply was that he went to the hotel, saw a swimming pool there, so assumed that because there was a swimming pool, they had a gym.

    Assumptions! Here, two separate but chaining assumptions lead to a completely different assessment of the situation.

    So, to humbly summarise my points:

    1. Single-issue answers do not address a complex issue. There are much more intertwining issues at play.

    2. We cannot make a call on an issue because we do not have the facts to hand. It is better not to take a position or at least quantify our position based on our assumptions.

    3. Assumptions are not always evident. You should not “assume”, but to verify that those in the logic chain before you are also not “assuming”.

    Rgds

    Tau

    We deplore the inhumanities, unfairness and inequalities that exists around us.

  276. Lallang exile says:

    Tau,

    Excellent, excellent piece. Not just on the Tibet/Olympic issue, but life in general and how to think before making a judgement/conclusion.

    And on the subject, dear Oster, you might be interested to check out the New Mexico/Texas secession movement in the US. Please get some background history on the subject and then you will have the context on waht is happening at present.

    I lived in New Mexico for a while and saw how poor the Hispanics and Red Indians were compared to the majority whites even though they get the same rigthts. As for Texas, you know who controls all the oilfields ( if u don’t, Bush is one of the them). Now, who is the US to decry “seccesions” in Tibet and Xinjiang until and unless it deals with New Mexico and Texas? In fact, if you study history, you would know the original inhabitants of Northern America were the RED INDIANS, whom the whites decimated when they wrested control.

    Ditto for the UK. Until Brown gives independence to faraway colonies like the Falklands and other colonies, he has no right to say anyting about Tibet. Count in Australia and New Zealand, which is white-controlled and thousands of miles away from Old Blighty.

    The US and UK, among others, are bashing China and trying to divert attention from grave problems at home – the mortgage crisis, falling dollar, etc. Most Americans and the British are not deceived, so let us not, dear Malaysians, be.

    Cheers, Toa.

  277. annoying mouse says:

    `Until Brown gives independence to faraway colonies like the Falklands and other colonies,…`

    Well said. He should also agree to the legitimated demands of Londonistan.

  278. annoying mouse says:

    India should return Arunachal Pradesh to China:

    New Delhi, Mar.22: The Government of China was upset when Dr Manmohan Singh visited Arunachal Pradesh earlier this year and announced projects worth over 100 billion rupees for development of what he stated was ‘Our Land of the Rising Sun”.

    http://www.dailyindia.com/show/227243.php/For-China-the-sun-sets-in-Tibet–Home

  279. wa wa says:

    I think to pu aside whethe Pro China or Pro Tibet aurgument. Or whether the west media or chinese media is bias. We need to look at Chna issues as well in different dimesnsion:

    1) The issue of whether Tibet belong to China? I guess, this issues had been long argued. and it is clear that within the Tibetan in exile now all over the world, has 2 views now: 1) dalai lama’s camp- agree with the TRUE and REAL autonomous Tibet , as part of China. This is official stand of Tibetan goverbment in exile since almosy 10 years more ago,
    2) The youth/young generation of Tibet in exile-Tibetan Youth Congress. They respect Dalai Lama as a spiritual leader,
    But they DONOT agree on the autonomous Tibet, but INDEPEDENT Tibet.
    This is an open conflict all over the world.
    So, actualy Dalai Lama view has no “contradiction” with Chinese governmenn stand. which he never call for Tibet seperated frim China.
    Hence, why Chinese gorvenment not pointing the fungers to Tibetan Youth Congress who cause the protests inside Tibet, violence etc?
    and keep focusing on Dalai Lama????

    My proposal is:
    if we really want to heat the real voice of the tibetan masses living inside and outside of Tibet, we should conducrt the indepdent referandum of choice -let the tibetan people vote whether they want be part of China or not.
    Like East Timur had done.
    With the indepedent UN body to conduct this referandum.

    So, no Chinese govenment nor Tibetan Government in Exile/ or Tibetan Youth Congress can make any decision for the tibetan masses in and outside of Tibet.

    Secondly, I think we should look at tibet issue as a reflection of the problems facing by the current political economy,social policy of China.
    To be recall all our memory:
    Chinese governement records in human rghts and democracy-either for thei own workers/peasants/ students movement/ freedom of xepression/asssmebly /social demand-all is questionable,

    The way they treated the peaceful protest in Tibet with violent method or using old slogan of cultural revolutiion had no different when theu suppressed any chinese inside china. Latest a lawyer advicate for AIDS issue in China was detained as well.

    The root of the problem is that chinese government need to reform their polital system to be more democratic and respect the human rights.
    not before like a facist state.

    3) There is a need for chinese government to review/felcet their minorities rights/policy in china.
    as even though they have the minority rights policy and claim they treate all the minority (the muslim, mongolian etc….) equal, Yet the han domaninace attitude are still very dominance in their policy.

    so, if we put aside all the west media and dalai lama as the monster or etc,.

    we have more dimension and space to look at this issue and reaise the root causes of the problem is not just you and me either one is wrong.

  280. wa wa,
    You are more sensible eventhough you think a Ref.is a practical approach. 1st of all, if people don’t agree that politics and sports shouldn’t mix then we may be warring among ourselves now no matter where we are. I already predicted to myself when China won the right to host the 2008 Olympics that China will face this eventuality ie. trouble-makers lurking in the shadows. Chinese leaders should in the 1st place concentrate on competing with US any where in the world, not necessarily on home soil, beat them and win more golds. Sit back, relax and wait for a better time be it another 25 or 50 years, let the whole world “beg” for China to be the next Olympics host.

    Back on track. That Monk is not doing enough to harness his fiery Tibetan Youth on one side and the US is leading a White pack on the other side and China retaliates. Do not force Democracy and Referendums on China bcoz we have to consider a history of thousand years and a culture so diversified that you don’t know where to begin. Unlike the US, you can begin with the Red Indians and the advent of the immigrants which today they are called Americans. These new people, Americans, have no common culture to call their own except that we know them as the gun-totting wild,wild West. And the democracy they introduced was probably less than 500 years.

    We might see China in this lenses: China is a rich parent and the child, the populace, has just obtained a driving licence after having learnt how to drive. As a parent, you exercise great care in choosing the right car for your child. Now the child demands for a Formula 1 car and the neighbours ( referendum instigators ) join in the brawl. As parents if you want your child to “vaporise” sooner, then buy that race car.

  281. wa wa says:

    garfield,
    i respected all the views expressed by you and others on this tibet issue.

    Howecver,I think we all are so heated debating on this issue, because the intention is hoping peace and friendship can be prevail in between the tibetan and Chinese. There is nothing abt sensitive issues. To discuss and find solution of a long time conflict, to ease people sufefrings or angers (of both side) is nothing to be senstive.Its depends on what is our intention indeed.

    the protest on Olympic is only a reflection on this unresolved conflict need to be taken seriuosly.
    if there is NO protest during the Olympic, do u think the problem of Tibet and China will dissapear?(this doesnot means i agred or disgared on any protest action, pls donot mix up the issue). Only i hope we can see beyond the protest of olynpic protest. To investigate the reasons of the conflict and how to resolve it.

    For me, the current chinese governmenet need to reflect why people protest, instead of using the old cold war time or cultural revolution slandering propaganda attack.
    this is not healthy in resolving conflict. and the wild burning nationalism emotion is as dangerouos as what Hiltler had done in the past.

    Whether the Tibetan monk able to solve the different views on the Tibet issue, this is for sure within the Tibet internal political fotces, they need to resolve themselves as soon as possible.

    However, this root of tibetan yoiuth congress ppl fought for indepedent because they had lost hope of the “middle way” non violence approach of Dalai Lama . and also the previuos 6 round of so call dialogue between the Chinese and Tibetan government in exile since have not result in any concrete and bear any fruitful result. as the Chinese givernment just did that as thought for “international propaganda” to show there are having dialogues.Maybe the Chinese givenrment shall now ecxplain what the discussion cannot come to agreement. and also why they refuse to accept Tibetan givernment in exile is standing on Tibet Autonomous as part of China, But not indepedent Tibet.
    the Chinese govenrment shall answers this instaad of just using accusing languagues on the Dalai lama as the puppet of the west or etc.

    so, its time that the next dialogue shall come to something concrete and able to ease the conflict.

    If we look at why anger and violence happen usually cause by:
    1) extremely being oppressed and no way to resolve, only using violence
    -this is partiicular for those powerless.Violence is being used for revenge.
    2) thos who are arrogrant and wanting other always follow their views. way and cannot torelate criticism or even different views.–this is the benavior of appressor

    in my views , both are dangerous for cearing peace, either for the nationa, country, or individual.

    if we said the anger and violence had expressed from the “riots” we saw in Lhasa on the 13 march. we can also see the “anger” and ‘violence” is happening among those chinese nationalist protestors who regards those tibetan ppl are evil.

    i think the debate between the west and china only created a simplistics ‘racist” views and also hatred sentiments.
    we cannort generalise a Race .

    Inside China, there are mant ppl donot agred that the facist way or chinese givernment now.
    donot u know that China have mant revolution before, their own ppl overthrown its own ppl.even there are manty of the get the foreign aids for their revolution. and also they spread their idealogies to all over the world> In the name of justice and for people, there were so many revolution happening inside China for centuries.

    so, donot think that china is a static history and no intervention or cooperation of chinese with the foreign power.
    the chinese govenrment under the leadership of maois had aided the Communist struugle in asia in last century, include malaysia.
    if we read all the old newspaper, we will know that China also a superpower that will intevent on others nation politics.
    so, it is not a west power will do it,.
    all big nation had done this.
    the barisan nasional call the chinese communist as terrorist in the last century.

    this is a historical facts if we are able to be honest to histortyb and not running away facing it.

    wa wa

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s