UPDATE: (MALAYSIAKINI)

Blogger and PKR webmaster Nathaniel Tan was released ON POLICE BAIL just after 5pm today after a four-day remand for allegedly breaching the Official Secrets Act. He was welcomed by a huge crowd of supporters and friends as he walked out of the Bukit Aman’s Commercial Crime Division in Kuala Lumpur. He has to report back to the Commercial Crime Division on July 31.”All I want to do now is to go and look for roti canai to eat,” he said.

He added that bloggers and activists will not bow down to any intimidating tactics by the police. THANKS NAT FOR SAYING THAT ON BEHALF OF US.

EARLIER…

Here’s a message from the now famous blogger Nat Tan, from Polytikus:

In brief, Nat feels motivated and is strengthening his resolve to fight for justice for all. He taught the inmates to chant reformasi songs. If they think they can get to PKR by bullying him, they are in for a shock. He is grateful to everyone for their support. Read the original message below:

Saya berasa semnagat and menguatkan azam untuk menegakkan keadilan untuk semua. I’ve been teaching the inmates how to sing reformasi songs. If they think they can get to PKR or activists by bullying a skinny young fella, mereka sudah salah anggap. Saya amat berterima kasih kepada keluarga yang dikasihi, Li Tsin yang disayangi, rakan-rakan aktivis dan rakan-rakan di Malaysia dan di luar negara.

Nat is in remand until today (Tuesday), supposedly till 3pm, according to Elizabeth Wong’s blog. Read it for lots of info on Nat and the daily activities in support of Nat.

I really hope Nat will be free soon, that his four-day remand won’t be extended. I understand how his family must feel, how Li Tsin, his devoted girlfriend must be through now (she met him last night). But I am so proud them, taking it all in good spirits and giving us all hope, like his parents for example.

Like most of us, he doesn’t deserve to be in there. What is his crime? But I really feel motivated to see all the support for Nat. The vigil at nights were successful and it’s good to see everyone, family and church members, bloggers, journalists, PKR supporters and activists coming together to register their protest against Nat’s detention, indirectly supporting the work bloggers do and at the same time, saying “NO” to draconian laws like the OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT.

I wish I were there too, to be part of the vigil, the support group, but since I am not, here’s flowers for Nat (above), for his family and his love, Li Tsin. Hope I will hear good news soon.
They can definitely put iron bars around us, but they can’t imprison our love, thoughts and our will to do right.

70 responses »

  1. Another bouquet from me too! God bless you all!

  2. DonJuan says:

    Hello Susan,

    What are you trying to do? The guy has a steady girlfriend for goodness sake! Three is a little too crowded.

  3. susan loone says:

    come on, li tsin is a sporting gal. i know her. send some flowers to nat okay. wish him well, and lets hope he walks free today.

  4. hawk says:

    Ya!! We do need GOD, Lets pray and claim this :

    Matthew 5 Verse 3 – 10

    Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    For thiers is the kingdom of heaven,
    Blessed are those who mourn,
    for they will be comforted,
    Blessed are the meek,
    for they will inherit the Earth,
    Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    for they will be filled,
    Blessed are the merciful,
    for they will be shown mercy,
    Blessed are the pure in heart,
    for they will see GOD,
    Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of GOD,
    Blessed are those who are persecuted,
    because of righteousness,
    for thiers is the kingdom of heaven.

    GOD is with us, Amen,

    We are blessed!!. For these words are for us. The BLOGGERS of Malaysia.

  5. Libra says:

    In Vigils of this nature, BN politicians are always conspicuously absent. The newspapers, which are actually defenders of human rights, the marginalized and the oppressed turn a blind eye.
    This is the ugly side on Malaysia.

  6. Mason From Kuching says:

    An inconclusive narration:-

    OSA versus WBS (Whistle Blowing Statute)

    The ‘Official-Secrets-Act’ , see reproduction of it’s classification (elsewhere in blogs) will repel ‘Whistle-Blowing-Statute’ (passed by Congress, US
    to award (in pecuniary) and honour the courageous
    risking their, family/ies lifes to reveal elements of all sorts of shady dealings occuring in any place.

    The ‘Officail Secrets-Act’ (denominational name in US) applies to treasonry outlined as selling State classified information to enemies.

    If drafted properly and executed justly in Malaysia, no laws merits to detain any dissent on any false pretexts called ISA, OSA or whatever
    crazy enactment to supress emancipation.

    I’ll continue later on commentaries on bloggers and commenters. Btw, I have signed the petition
    no: 212, have u? Besides I am not a blogger, but a regular commenter.

  7. sofiairdina says:

    I always have the admiration for selfless fighters such as Nat who have the gut to go against the whole system for something he believes in and for the benefit of others.

    I am also guilty for sitting down here complaining and nothing more.

    To Nat, susan and others. Thank you guys.

  8. silverwolf says:

    Yes, Nat sure has guts. It really grieves me to see the crap you folks have to go through in Malaysia because of that old devil called fascism. Here in America where we have freedom of speech, we take for granted that we can severely criticize the government, and people do all the time. In our Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson pointed out that all men are endowed with inalienable, G-d given rights, and our Bill of Rights states that freedom of speech is one of them. Inalienable means no government on earth can take them away from us. Jefferson taught that governments were evil but necessary to carry out certain minimalist functions like protecting property rights (including the property of your own body), but beyond that have no business sticking their noses in our lives. He and the other founding fathers of the U.S knew the stink of fascism just as well as you folks in Malaysia. It’s always the same stink, and the fascists and collectivists always think they will win, and as Ghandi pointed out, they always fall. It has to be. So, to you good freedom lovers of Malaysia, I say when you finally get rid of your collectivist government, adopt a constitution like ours, that always puts the rights of the individual first. The recent attempts by the bi-partisan collectivists in American to overthrow the Bill of Rights with their Patriot Act, their secret servaillance of e-mails, their overthrow of Habaeus Corpus, has been met with great contempt by the American people, which is why our President now has the lowest poll approvals in modern U.S. history. And the fact that the Democrats have rolled over and mostly collaborated in this overthrow of our rights has earned them the most contempt I can ever recall. A lot of people here hate both parties for their anti-democratic collectivism and their acquiessence in the overthrow of the Bill of Rights. So it is the same here as it is there with you. All people yearn for and love liberty. And just as the libertarian sentiment and the hatred of oppressive government is growing here by leaps and bounds, so it will grow in fascist Malaysia. I am telling all my friends and acquaintances here in rural America about Nat Tan’s case and the totalitarianism of the Malaysian government. Fascist Malaysia, American libertarians are watching you.

  9. yh says:

    go on silverwolf. international attention is needed as without which, this government will imposed more oppressive measures to cover up its pervasive corruption.

  10. Tiger Wood says:

    Brethren, such is the nature of our institution, that as some must of necessity rule and teach..so others must learn to submit and obey, humility in each is an essential qualifications.

    Nathaniel has been singled out at a “trouble maker” (that’s what my boss called me too!!) and hence he has to be neutralised.

    He has to learn to submit and obey the UMNOputras or he will be slained and entombed without the city walls. Nathaniel will have to be strong and our support, both moral and physical will be required during his illegal detention.

    Nathaniel, may the great architect of the universe keep you steadfast in this your darkest moment as a blog administrator. May he endue you with strength and fortitude to boldly repel the slanderer of your good name.

    Our hand extended to you is one of friendship and brotherhood.

    Our feet shall travel through dangers and difficulties and unite with yours in forming a column of mutual defence and support.

    The posture of our daily supplications shall remind us of your wants, dispose our heart and relieve your necessities as far as may fairly be done, without detriment to myself or to my connections.

    Our breats shall be the sacred repository of your secrets when entrusted to us as such, murder, treason, felony and all other offences contrary to the laws of god and the ordinances of the realm being at all time most especially excepted.

    Nathaniel, we await the imminent of your release from unlawful detention and once more greet you on the five points of fellowship, in act as well as in act.

    And we sincerely and solemnly pray to the most high that he will protect you from any harm.

    And May GOD bless you forever and ever more!!

    Harimau Kayu

  11. Rajah says:

    “I am telling all my friends and acquaintances here in rural America about Nat Tan’s case and the totalitarianism of the Malaysian government. Fascist Malaysia, American libertarians are watching you.”

    C’mon. These people cannot take care of what’s happening in their own backyard, why should they want to do something like that about some third world country some 16 thousands miles away?!

    You cannot even throw eggs properly at Ann Coultier, why should we trust you to do something like that?

  12. Cowboy says:

    “Our breasts shall be the sacred repository of your secrets…”

    Got milk??

  13. wits0 says:

    Eggs from liberals don’t get Anne Coulter because she’s good. She’s easily the conservatives’ queen of sarcasm and to be one means there must be be some truth backing her says not just simply wild and hollow sarcasm.

  14. Rajah says:

    After the egg throwing incident, she’s scared stiff about appearing at campuses all over the country to give her usual conservative rubbish. She turned down many invitations after that.

    This is the woman who took on the wives of the 9/11 victims. Imagine anybody having something cruel to say about these women who lost their husbands at the World Trade Center!

    I would give everything for the opportunity to throw rotten eggs at her the next time she’s near anywhere.

  15. hawk says:

    Susan’

    Hey, why change the title of the Blog?

    Believe me, PRAYER works.

  16. susan loone says:

    dear hawk,
    changed it because i updated the post.

  17. wits0 says:

    Perhaps then Cindy Sheehan is fine as commander in grief? She lost her son and therefore earned total legitimacy for her antics. Thought her son enlisted for a second tour of duty when he was killed.

    Coulter vs 9/11 widows:
    http://www.spin.com/features/everybodystalkingabout/2006/06/060607_anncoulter/

  18. valentin10 says:

    Very good blog, very rich nice pictures and articles, congratulations !!!

  19. Rajah says:

    Wits0,

    “Host Matt Lauer asked the sharp-tongued conservative to explain certain remarks in her book, including a striking statement about the 9/11 widows.

    “These broads are millionaires….” Ann Coulter

    And so is she! Why is she so jealous?? Every time she appears on TV it is mostly to advertise her books and they are always about liberal bashing. She competes like many in her outrageous behavior for public attention.

    I have better use for her sharp tongue!

  20. Rajah says:

    As for Cindy Sheehan, it is about anti-war activism and freedom of speech. That poor housewife has had to pay a very high price. She lost her husband and family not to mention her son who died in Iraq fighting a lost cause.

  21. wits0 says:

    “Those broads are millionaires”

    The alternate view: http://www.barkofthemoonbat.com/?m=200606&paged=2

    Cindy already has fredom of speech. Anti-war activism can also often presupposes that anyone not supportive of them are pro-war. Cindy’s son re-enlisted twice ; he was 24 and believed differently from his mom. She has gone beyond and disgraced his memory by milking every drop of capital from his death. There are many like her who lost their sons too. Must she also go chummy up to Chevez and others too for publicity?

  22. Rajah says:

    Nope. She is one lost soul.

  23. Rajah says:

    As far as the Iraq War is concerned I want them to go on fighting – so long as I don’t have to fight their war.

  24. sungame says:

    It’s been a while since I checked on this blog or any other of my Malaysian sources. While I am pleased to see that Nat has been released – although it might be temporarily – I am saddened by the fact that he was detained at all.

    The OSA seems to be doing a lot of damage to the freedom of speech in Malaysia lately. My thoughts go out to all brave political bloggers in Malaysia in these diffifcult times.

    I find it important to end this comment with a word of warning to the American commenters to this post: Yes, USA has a long history as the land of the free, and freedom of speech has traditionally been very important for you the people. In many ways, you have been an example to the rest of us. Alas, there are some very strong factors trying there best to limit the freedom of speech in America today. Freedom lovers in the USA (and elsewhere) today should keep in mind that what is happening in Malaysia today is not entirely a thing of the past for the Western countries. It could very well be the future.

  25. Zaiaku says:

    I think things could get really complicated right no but you may be making it worse.

  26. Rajah says:

    Sungame,

    Oh yes! The U.S. Patriots Act, the REAL ID Act etc gives the executive unfettered powers to listen and snoop on citizens – from reading your e-mails to listening to your calls, to the kind of books you buy and borrow from the public library! The country’s privacy laws are ineffective to prevent such massive intrusion into our privacy by the government.

    They can track you from the use of your cell phones etc.

    The U.S. used to criticize Malaysia for its repressive legislation like the ISA. Today it has taken a leaf from our experience in fighting the CTs. Once classified as enemy combatant you may be arrested without charge and detained indefinitely. What Nathaniel Tan was made to go through is nothing.

  27. Rajah says:

    Malaysia is not alone in having the Official Secrets Act. The U.S. has too.

  28. silverwolf says:

    Raja, why shouldn’t I care about what goes on 16,000 miles away. Remember these are human rights, rights that belong to everybody on the planet. As for not being able to take care of what goes on in our own backyard, wait until the next election here. Voters are deserting our two major collectivist parties by droves, Both Bush and the new Democratic congress have approval ratings of under 30% in recent major polls. As for throwing rotten eggs at Anne Coulter — what a waste of good food. Who cares about her? She makes a good living because all the small town libraries in America are forced by the collectivists to buy her books. But the collectivist philosophy of liberals in America is so corrupt that her diatribes make a lot of sense to many Americans. However, she and her fellow so-called conservatives are obviously collectivists too in their support of the death penalty (one of the corner stones of fascism), the drug laws (70% of the people in U.S. jails are there for non-violent drug possession — a position that libertarian free-market capitalists spit on) and their massive deficit spending that is finally sending the U.S. dollar into a swan dive even against socialist currencies like the Euro, and the Aussie and Canadian dollar. But the attempt to overthrow the Bill of Rights by the Republicans was really made possible by the collectivist philosophy of the liberals. In this context I would strongly recommend reading F A Hayek’s “The Road to Serfdom” (a severely abridged edition is available on the web) in which he postulates that collectivism, no matter what its good intentions, must ultimately lead to totalitarianism because in its overthrow of human rights in the name of doing good, it undermines human integriity. This work, written in the late ’40s, and with a very objective style as if an entomologist were describing the behaviour of insects, describes exactly what is currently happening in America. And that is why charlatans like Coulter and Lindbaugh are so popular. But the American public is becoming very alarmed at the signs that American collectivism is finally moving towards a police state, and I believe the reaction will be to move towards libertarianism (what used to be called “liberalism” at the time of the American revolution). Watch the poll numbers in America for the Libertarian party, or for the Republican candidate Ron Paul, a congressman from Texas who calls himself a conservative but voted against the Patriot Act and is calling for immediate pullout of U.S from Iraq, and an end to the communistic war on drugs. He also opposes the death penalty. I certainly disagree with him on his isolationism, his absurd support for certain gun laws, and some of his foreign policy views, but he is the only libertarian in a field of about 25 collectivists. But I’d bet dollars to ringgits that he will be a major force in the election, and, because the collectivist Republicans hate his fiscal conservatism, his opposition to the death penalty and his support for the legalization of cannabis, they will most certainly not run him unless he gets massive support in the Republican primaries, and if this occurs he may well run on the Libertarian Party ticket. So, sungame, I take your warning seriously, but since one of Americans favorite pastimes is running down our politicians and the massive contempt I hear daily in peoples comments for Bush and big government, even in a rural, fairly conservative area that traditionally votes 60% Republican, I doubt that freedom of speech will soon be curtailed here as is being done in collectivist Malaysia.

  29. Rajah says:

    “Raja, why shouldn’t I care about what goes on 16,000 miles away. Remember these are human rights, rights that belong to everybody on the planet.”

    What are your thought on Darfur then?

  30. Rajah says:

    “I doubt that freedom of speech will soon be curtailed here as is being done in collectivist Malaysia.”

    I don’t think I suggested anywhere in my response that free speech is being curtailed. or about to be curtailed. That is impossible because it is inconceivable. What is conceivable is the continued erosion of privacy rights of the average citizen.

    Just think of the technology now possible. I am sure you’re aware of the stalking case involving a cell phone user. Any stalker could spoof merely by having your SSN and DOB. He could clone your phone and changing your cell phone provider will not help. Changing your number of course does not help.

    Imagine what the government could do with the vast resources available to it! Now with the Democrats in control of the U.S. Congress, big government is gonna make a comeback.

  31. Rajah says:

    “It could very well be the future.” Sungame

    Yes, back to the future then!

  32. Rajah says:

    Wolf,

    Given the choice between Barack Obama and Hilary, who would you vote for?

    I don’t trust Hilary. She has changed her positions so many times that even the Kamasutra could not keep up!

  33. Rajah says:

    It would thrill Clinton of course!

  34. whispering9 says:

    Hahaha, not many know the true meaning of kamasutra.

  35. […] Nat, free but not free UPDATE: (MALAYSIAKINI) Blogger and PKR webmaster Nathaniel Tan was released ON POLICE BAIL just after 5pm today after a […] […]

  36. silverwolf says:

    Rajah — as for Darfur, I’d carpetbomb the main government buildings in Khartoum and the main military headquarters and bases. But no one would go for that. Really that is the job for the Europeans or a UN force, but Islamic countries would never permit that, and how would Clinton’s beloved Red China react to the loss of oil (Clinton gave them most favored nation trading status). And what about China’s 50 year old occupation of Tibet. And there 3500 executions a year. And their traffic in human body parts. And their torture of the Falingong. Absolute silence from Clinton and the democrats. I still recall Clinton’s sickening smile when he greeted the war criminal Suharto, who murdered a million Christians in East Timor. Absolute silence from the democrats. As for Obama or Hilary, I would never vote for them. They are typical ego-maniac politicians who only care about their poll ratings. And both collectivists. They both support the death penalty, the war on drugs(except the ones they use), the death tax which confiscated roughly half of what a person accumulates in their life, and higher income taxes. They are despicable, and should both be in jail. Remember, under the “liberal” Clinton we had a rate of executions in America like nothing we had since Eisenhower’s day. Clinton supported it and executed a man when he was governor of Arkansas. Millions of Americans rotted in jail for possession of cannabis under his administration. Drug warriors like the Democrat Sen. Biden pushed through even more draconian drug laws (excluding the killer drugs alcohol and tobacco). Senator Edwards is so depraved, he even opposes legalized medical cannabis, although he’s always telling us he’s for the little guy. Not one of them has every spoken in favor of legalizing heroin for the terminally ill. Of course, the dead can’t vote, although their estates can be looted to the tune of 55% of assets. So millions of Americans die in agony, while the Democrats tell us they’re for the underdog. Under Clinton, here in rural Oregon the trucks full of 100+ year old trees never stopped rolling. If you stood on the main street of the small town I live in, you’d see one role by every 3 or 4 minutes. Al Gore was the vice-President during those eight years. Did you ever once hear him use the bully pulpit of the vice-Presidency to say “Stop logging! Deforestation is leading to global warming.” One reason we have this problem is because Clinton and Gore did nothing. What hypocracy. But if I had to have a Democrat in the white house, I think I’d prefer Gore because he seems bright, and I don’t think he’s a fascist like Bush although, as I said in a previous comment, collectivism must lead willy-nilly to totalitarianism. Hilary Clinton wanted to lower the inheritance tax threshhold level in America to begin at $200,000 from 600,000, about half of what the average home costs here now, which would have forced virtually every grieving survivor in America to throw these homes on the market immediately, because you only have 90 days after the date of death to pay that to the IRS. Real family friendly, she is. Obama comes out with the usually boring generalities our collectivist politicians have been uttering for 40 years. These people are garbage. If Ron Paul doesn’t run ( and there is some circumstancial evidence that he might be a crypto-racist) I’d almost certainly vote for whomever the libertarian party puts up. I spent 30 years as a registered Democrat, so I know their whole collectivist guilt-trip. ( But then, I’m not a typical libertarian, as I’m not an isolationist, and think there is a role for government to play in providing a minimal guarantee of food, clothes and shelter for all. I would also favor free or low cost health care for vegetarians who were not obese and abstained from any drug more addictive than caffeine. All other should pay.) But 90% of what the government here spends our money on is either, unneccesary, corporate welfare, or unconstitutional. We could have much lower income tax levels here (and Congressman Paul would eliminate the income tax entirely) and have more affluent people and the same basic services. Anyway, don’t blame me for Bush. I voted for Michael Badnarik, the libertarian candidate for president. But aren’t we getting away from the issue of Nat Tan, who has more guts in his 10 fingers than all the Democrats in America.

  37. […] I learn via Susan Loone that Nat Tan was released on bail yesterday. He is under obligation to appear at the Commercial […]

  38. kk says:

    well.. this is malaysia, BN/UMNO toyland!

    when u bought up the sensitive issue, u are against them! “SHUT UP OR DIE!” tactic will be subjected to us.

    if u know this guy, namewee or something. he revised our national song with truth sensitive issues bought up, now the BN uses their chinese dog (huang jing hung) to bite this guy and wanting to put him in jail! HELL! they should put the effect to stop crimes, not some singer from nowhere??!!

    http://namewee.blogspot.com/

  39. kittykat46 says:

    I am very happy that Nat Tan has been released unharmed. His arrest under OSA pretext was a clear injustice.

    Nat was fortunate that the sheer volume of publicity and public support ensured that the Police stuck to the letter of the law, at least.

    To find out what happens to the more unfortunate underclass of Malaysian society when they get arrested, I recommend you visit this website.

    I do not know who runs this website, but it has the ring of truth to it.

    Warning – it may spoil your lunch or dinner.

  40. kittykat46 says:

    I am very happy that Nat Tan has been released unharmed. His arrest under OSA pretext was a clear injustice.

    Nat was fortunate that the sheer volume of publicity and public support ensured that the Police stuck to the letter of the law, at least.

    To find out what happens to the more unfortunate underclass of Malaysian society when they get arrested, I recommend you visit this website.

    I do not know who runs this website, but it has the ring of truth to it.

    http://www.policewatchmalaysia.com/index.php?do=home

    Warning – it may spoil your lunch or dinner

  41. Rajah says:

    So S.7 of the CPC has been breached – though not for the first, second or third time. Police over friendly with court staff. Art. 5 of the Federal Constitution has been breached.

    So now that Nathaniel has been released from remand are we to wait for the next victim who could be your grandfather, grandmother, uncle and aunt or your brother or sister to hold a candle light and sing freedom songs??

    Remand prisoners throughout the world are treated not as convicts; and enjoy easy access to members of their family and counsel and are housed differently in country-club type facilities. with minimum of security. Many among them are waiting for extradition since the crime or crimes they have been accused were committed in a different jurisdiction.

    Remember the Malaysian barrister in the thick of the BMF scandal in the early 80s? What’s his name? Yes, Lorraine Esme Osman. To this today he holds the title of being the world’s longest remand prisoner. How long was he a remand prisoner? Seven years or more? British authorities could not of course charge him because the crime was committed in Hong Kong and he was detained in London. That was the only reason for the remand. He chose to fight extradition rather than be whisked away to a Hong Kong jail – and for good reasons.

    It is not that our legal system does not subscribe to the principle that you are innocent until proven guilty and not the other way round, though it should be noted that had Nathaniel been charged under the OSA, the burden of proof would have been reversed.

    But this is about the treatment of remand prisoners; these are people who have been accused of some criminal wrongdoing the actual circumstances of which the person remanded has no clue whatsoever. They have not been charged nor given the benefit of counsel.

    Our Criminal Procedure Code was set at a time in the country;s history when it was involved in a struggle against Communist terrorists who would stop at nothing to disrupt law and order.

    Like the ISA, it has been abused by the police – and police excesses are made worse with a judiciary eager to just comply with the demands of the executive.

  42. silverwolf says:

    Rajah — Thanks for the explanation of the development of Malaysian laws. Those of us who have not been subject to the terrorism of communist fanatics should take that into account when judging these laws. But is Malaysia still subject to communist terrorism? Is it still necessary to have this abhorrent censorship? I read Nat’s blog in question here and I found it mild compared to a lot of the tirades in our local small town paper.
    In a larger sense, this is a major issue: the internet and freedom of speech. If governments world wide start censoring blogs and get away with it, it is a very serious matter indeed. Lord Bertrand Russell, one of the great civil libertarians of our time, felt that all censorship was abhorrent and should be done away with. The Nobel Prize-winning novelist (and I believe one of the 10 greatest novelists of all time), Alberto Moravia felt that once censorship was entrenched, it was very very difficult to get rid of it. His works were censored by the Italian fascist murderers. Of course, one does not have the right to shout “fire” in a crowded theatre, or stand out on the street and shout “Kill the Armenians”. This is attempted murder or enciting to riot.
    You’d think, with its history of British Law, which really shows great respect for the Rights of Man, and with its large Indian and Chinese cultural populations with their long mercantilist traditions of free-market capitalism, that Malaysia would be more like England or Holland in their respect for the rights of the individual (and which really came in with the rise of British and Dutch capitalism — and as long as those individuals were white), but I realize Malaysia has its communist and religious fanatics who are certainly not fans of Ghandi, King and Jefferson.
    If Malaysia wants to be a prosperous, capitalist
    society, it had better learn to trust the anarchy of free speech as well as the anarchy of the free market.
    The eldritch situation of being held under remand without knowing why is so remeniscent of the situation in Orson Welles beautiful film, “The Trial”, based on the Kafka novel and starring Anthony Perkins and Orson the Genius himself. I’d really recommend it to you.
    This long remand-without-charge situation was prevented by our constitution in its order that all have a right to a speedy trial. Here in the U.S. they must charge you in 24 hours or let you go, which I think ought to be a worldwide standard. But Bush is trying to overthrow this with the Padilla case, and the Quislings in congress are kissing is ass. America really needs a libertarian like Jefferson or Franklin ( and yes, I know all about Jefferson owning slaves and all the contraditions inherent in that).

  43. Rajah says:

    “Is it still necessary to have this abhorrent censorship?” Silverwolf

    Malaysians do not understand free speech because they never really had one. They speak of boundaries to free speech and end up shouting down those who disagree with them and yet not really understanding the significance of what they are doing to each other.

    That is very sad.

    Their attitude is enough to turn Voltaire in his grave.

  44. Rajah says:

    “Here in the U.S. they must charge you in 24 hours or let you go, which I think ought to be a worldwide standard.” Silverwolf

    Post 9/11 the U.S. is catching up with Malaysia in the introduction and use of legislation like the Internal Security Act ((ISA). Once when I told the judge that the U.S. Patriot Act does to Americans what the ISA does to Malaysians, both judge and counsel look at each other and together we laughed.

    The U.S. Department of State officials used to criticize the former Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir for his use of the powers of arbitrary arrest and detention under the ISA. But after 9/11 they have been strangely quiet!

  45. silverwolf says:

    Very interesting, Rajah. Did this silence on the racist Mahathir coincide with the accession of the Bush administration to power, or did it start in the middle of Bush’s imperial reign?

    Your right that we are catching up after 9/11 but 36% of Americans now believe that 9/11 was a Reichstag fire, that they possibly knew the attack was coming, and even put explosives in the towers to bring the buildings down. I’m not saying I believe this but there are so many unanswered questions, and such a ton of circumstancial evidence that many many people are now completely cynical on Bush’s credibility and the government in general and this is very healthy for America. Just what Jefferson taught us. The Bill of Rights is to protect the individual from the government, and see, 230 years after this genius pointed it out, you good folks in Malaysia are having to eat crap because you apparently don’t have a bill of rights in your constitution. Do you have the death penalty? I sure hope not. But I’d bet you do.

    I feel the danger for America is so great that I feel it is imperative that we elect a libertarian president, but the chances for that are slim. If a democrat is elected, we wont have political fascism, but we will have a hugh expansion in our entitlement obligations and at the same time much higher income taxes and this combination will either bankrupt America or send it into a massive recession/depression or probably both. We could also have massive inflation at the same time as this recession. It won’t be pretty.A key part of the Democratic dogma is the reinstitution of the estate tax. Although only 3-4% of Americans are millionaires, surveys show 70% of the American public oppose the estate/inheritance tax, because, damn it, if a man works all his life building up a business and manages to leave a million dollars , especially in light of the fact that he was paying almost 40% in Federal income taxes under the Democrats he ought to be able to leave it to his kids instead of Hilary Clinton giving it to pay for one thousanth of a B-1 bomber. In addition to federal income tax, there is also a state income tax which about 45 state in the U.S. have. This tax usually runs from 3 to 9% with most states about 6-7%. The Democrats wanted to reinstitute the estate tax which Bush and the Republicans had raised during his administration from $600,000 to ten million and wanted to abolish altogether.And I believe this is why he got elected and reelected, or better put, selected since he stole the election — however, as you recall, after a few weeks of the Florida recount battle, the democrats caved in because they were afraid it would hurt Wall Street and their large stock portfolios. (Edwards is worth $31 million, which he made on a few legal cases with enormous settlements, of which he got 30%). They also virtually all voted for the Patriot Act with the exception of Sen. Feingold and one or two others. Then they voted for re-enactment of the Patriot Act when it came up for renewal after a couple of years, the most un-American, unpatriotic act that’s ever come up in congress because it overthrows 230 years of the rule of law. Ron Paul in the congress voted against it the first time, and the second time, and vociferously denounced it, and for that alone, he deserves to be president. So two reasons we have this fascistic assault on our freedoms is because the democrats didn’t challenge Bush’s election fraud and because they voted en masse for the Patriot Act. They could have had the presidency if they had opposed the inheritance tax, or even moved it up to $10million, but their party ideology says “hate the rich”. A society that violates the civil rights of an individual just because they are rich will violate the civil rights of a poor or destitute person just because they are poor or destitute.

    They also could have had the presidency if they had supported decriminalizing cannabis or even just medical cannabis, but no, this massive injustice too was insignificant for them. John Edwards would even deny medical cannabis to the sick, which in my book makes him fit to be in jail. What a swine! What scum! And this is a liberal democrat.

    A further reason we have creeping fascism is because the democrats voted to confirm virtually every one of those so-called judges that Bush and Papa Bush packed the court with. I ask liberal democrats who whine about Bush, why did the Democrats vote almost to a man to confirm them, knowing they would overthrow like robots many vital protections of American democracy like the wall of separation between church and state that Jefferson taught was so vital? Their reply “They had to do it.”Governments with official state religions are hopeless, unless they have democratic voting, and even then they will have a lot of headaches because of it.

    They also didn’t oppose the use of electronic voting machines made by Diebold, a company with strong corporate ties to the Republican/Bush nexus. There was no paper trail either, so even voter fraud could not be detected. Technology professors all over the U.S. were warning that these machines could be pre-programmed to slightly alter the voting percentages, or the buildings where these machines sat unattended for days prior to election could have been broken into and a new program inserted. The novelist Gore Vidal (a distance cousin of Al Gore by the way) even warned that if the Democrats permitted these machines ot be used, Bush would steal the election. Did we hear the Democrats say, “paper ballots only to protect democracy?” No. Complete silence from the democrats. During the last election, the voting results from Ohio, the state that put Bush over the top, were highly suspect because the exit polls which were normaly statistically highly accurate showed a Kerry victory, but the official results went to Bush. Did Kerry call for a recount, or a probe of the voting irregularities? No, he rolled over and play dead. The suit demanding a recount and accountability was a joint suit filed by — guess who — Badnarik , the libertarian candidate for president and the Libertarian Party along with David Cobb of the Green Party. Did Kerry jump in or support the suit when it was denied. Complete silence from the democrats.

    So don’t blame Bush for fascism here in America. It is really the fault of the democrats
    and all the tens of millions of Americans who call themselves liberals and blindly support the democrats. Usually they are receiving perks through the system, and like under Hitler, once they are being paid off, be it food, cheap housing or a huge pension check, they will never go against the government, no matter how immoral it is. Fascism always buys off the people with real material perks. But it also always ends up bankrupt. And remember the German Nazis and the Italian Fascists were both socialist regimes.

  46. silverwolf says:

    But I wanted to add Rajah that there must be an element of humanity in Malaysian society if the judge the counsel and the defendant can all laugh together.

  47. monsterball says:

    For what is worth…the good news is … Nat is freed…and makes politkus a happy lady.
    That what matter most now.
    Talking laws here or in USA is full of shit..as both countries have yet to prove how sincere the governments are.

  48. Rajah says:

    “Your right that we are catching up after 9/11 but 36% of Americans now believe that 9/11 was a Reichstag fire, that they possibly knew the attack was coming, and even put explosives in the towers to bring the buildings down. I’m not saying I believe this…” Silverwolf

    I think readers here on this blog would like to know why no deaths of Jewish workers were reported in the aftermath of the tragedy. I for one never heard of any Jewish funeral on TV or in the newspapers – and there were so many. Muslims all over the world including Muslims in Malaysia believe in the conspiracy theory – and there are many floating around to this day!

    One such theory was that the CIA was warned by Mosaad about a possible strike. They received many such reports over the years but most did not materialize and why should this one be any different – or so it goes. They were wrong.

    There was this book shop Borders on the mezzanine floor of one of the towers (could be the 7th tower – most of us unfamiliar with the WTC thought only of the two twin towers) a place I used to frequent whenever I was early for an appointment or missed an appointment. That day I was running late for an appointment on 43rd Street. Had I been too early I would have made my way to my favorite book shop Borders where you could have your favorite Sumatran coffee at Starbucks while you read your favorite novels – for free and not buy them if you’re good in speed reading!

    You can imagine how happy I was to have been late for my appointment!

    I still have the $12 bus ticket for the round trip to Manhattan which I am keeping as a souvenir.

  49. Rajah says:

    “But I wanted to add Rajah that there must be an element of humanity in Malaysian society if the judge the counsel and the defendant can all laugh together.” silverwolf

    No, that incident was in a U.S. federal court and before an administrative law judge where rules of procedure and evidence are only loosely applied, and where they are less formal.

  50. Rajah says:

    Silverwolf,

    I remember several years earlier and before 9/11 Vice President Al Gore on his visit to Malaysia caused quite a bit of stir there when he supported the Reform Movement and condemned the lack of transparency in the detention of Malaysia’s Deputy Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim through his Secretary of State Madeline Albright. Anwar who incidentally was close to Wolfowitz on one of his visits to the United States was reported to have been given a full gun salute and red carpet by President Clinton under the Democrats, an honor not accorded to Prime Minister Mahathir when he was there, had him so incensed. Post 9/11 Prime Minister Mahathir appeared in the White House at the invitation of President Bush after having bought his way through lobbyist Jack Abramoff who was later charged with corruption.

    I would love to see Karl Rove forced out of office as advisor to Bush – which will never happen so long as Bush remains in the White House. Scooter Libby was only the fall guy in the recent trial.

    Your thoughts?

  51. silverwolf says:

    Yes, the old canard about all the Jews being in on some giant conspiracy, and running all the worlds banks, even though they are 15 million people out of 7 thousand million in the world. What a load of crap. Do they control all the Japanese banks.? Do they control the Saudi banks, and the gulf banks, and the west African banks, and the Mongolian banks? The Chinese Banks? Given the percentage of Jews in NY, there must have been hundreds killed.
    I saw many Jewish names on the lists. Cantor of Cantor-Fitzgerald, a very large U.S. bond trading firm, was killed. He was Jewish. This is the usual racist crap that Islam MUST throw at Judaism, because they cannot accept the justice of a land that was stolen from them by the Ottoman Turks being returned to an indiginous people. In a census of l860, 60% of the population of Jerusalem were Jews. A great deal of the land in Israel was purchased from large feudal land owners. As a capitalist I believe that if someone buys something its theirs. Moreover, the attacks on Jews in Israel started from the git-go, not only after the state of Israel was formed. So the occupation is only the latest excuse for murdering Jews. I think the problem in that region is 90% Arab intransigence. But Israel shouldn’t have settlements on Palestinian land. That only undermines their moral position. However, we should remember that the Arab racists must keep up this barrage of propaganda. I have seen photos on the web of Jew-hating cartoons published in the Arab press, all over the Arab world. It’s like the garbage in Der Sturmer. Well, I have such a dim view of racists, because they are actually murderers. Egyptian government TV had a series on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a fabrication written by a virulently anti-Semitic Russian Orthodox Christian priest, as if it were genuine. When I hear stuff like this, and I think 80% of America would agree, I feel like I’m dealing with those old Southern racist of segregation times who hated all Blacks, Jews, Catholics and those “damned foreigners”. And that is why American society takes a very dim view indeed of the Arab world and Islam in general. Racists really are scum.

    The posturing and subtle manuevers of Clinton-Gore to show their approval/disapproval is typical of their cleverness. They want to show their love of human rights, and I do think, as long as it didn’t have negative economic implications for America, they would side with democracy and Jeffersonian ideals against fascist punks. They did positive things for human rights in certain spots. I do not think that Clinton or Gore as individuals are fascists; I think they probably hate fascists, so that is in their favour. Clinton did oppose and demonstrate against the Viet Nam war, as I did. That is one big reason I foolishly voted for him the first time. But the president of the U.S. has awesome power. He can use his bully pulpit to say things, and influence policy around the world. But Clinton, like Carter,did just the opposite. He kept quiet pretty much on the big issues, and as long as Americans were making money, they were happy, as usual, and he was popular. Imagine if he had used his popularity to say “Let’s end this scourge on the planet known as capital punishment!” or “It’s utterly immoral for us to jail people for possession of a plant less physically addictive that caffeine. It’s also unconstitutional. And therefore today I am ordering that every person in American in jail for any cannabis offence be immediately released from jail.” He would have been known as St. Clinton, and been the most popular president in history. However, another factor with him is that years ago I heard and investigated several reports that a nurse, many years back, when he was governor of Arkansas, had been raped by him. It sounded pretty credible, and she described some anatomical peculiarity of his. Given how his opponents wanted to character- assasinate him, I have always purposely taken it with the doubt that I apply to all my beliefs (I was trained by Lord Russell) but my gut feeling is, it could well be true, he seems such an arrogant S.O.B. But what really turned me into a Clinton-hater was when I saw him shooting birds on a hunting expedition to show what a “sportsman” he was. Sadistically murdering defenceless animals, that what amuses these sub-humans, like Clinton and Kerry and Bush. The world will never be peaceful until everyone is a vegetarian, and this cannot come about by coercion. But of course, this will only come about because people will find a vegan diet more practical that eating meat, because they will live longer and get sick less, not because they can feel compassion and pity for a tiny terrorised creature with emotions no different to a human child who suddenly realised it was about to be murdered. In my book hunters, racists and Nazis are all on the same page.

    By the way, two items to add to my “The Crimes of Clinton” list are his waiting two years to bomb the Serb positions that were shelling Sarejevo (I would have done it right away and saved thousands of lives) and I think a hot-head like war-criminal Reagan might have done it much sooner too. And what do you think of those scum-bags in the EU who were right on top of it dithering for all that time and doing nothing while all those people were butchered, and their planes could have blown the crap out of the murderers in a few minutes. America finally had to go in. His other crime was not intervening in Ruanda, but I guess the French told him to stay out and let the genocide take place. Nice folks us whiteys.

    Hard to think of them but I think his invasion of Haiti was a good thing. I wish someone in SE Asia would do the same for Burma. Call for an all volunteer force of ex-army people, arm and train them, and take over Rangoon in a couple of days and all those decades of misery and terror would be over. Why do we mollycoddle these war criminals? Why are we so delicate with the janjaweed? Why are we so afraid to burn those who burn little kids alive, who rape women and then burn them alive? Islam, the religion of peace.

    As for Rove, Bush and all that, I avoid thinking about politics. It is a great dissipater of the energy of the mind, and when you think about these politicians, you are feeding them. Use your life energy to go into your own perceptions and contemplations, then you are no longer feeding the politician, but yourself, and in your interaction with it, the world. After all, all these politicians are the most pathetic, mediocre souls you could imagine. Their concern with looks, and courting public approval, has something feminine about it that is unfitting in a politician. They are virtually all ass-lickers. But then, once in a while, … a George McGovern arrives (I probably wouldnt agree with some of his social programs now, but McGovern was the only man with balls to run for the presidency in the last 47 years).What a president he would have made instead of that caitiff, the war-criminal Nixon! But yes, Bush and Mahathir. It must have been like looking in the mirror for them.

  52. Rajah says:

    “I saw many Jewish names on the lists. Cantor of Cantor-Fitzgerald, a very large U.S. bond trading firm, was killed. He was Jewish. This is the usual racist crap….” Silverwolf

    So you guys out there who are conspiracy buffs, please take note!

  53. kittykat46 says:

    On 9/11 and alleged lack of Jewish deaths, I think some of the commentators on this blog have gone into la-la land.

    Yeah, pigs can fly don’t they ?

  54. silverwolf says:

    Rajah – Yeah. Thank G-d you were late for your appointment, or it would have been one more sharp brain crushed to a pulp. It shows you that maybe the fascists are right: books can be very dangerous things! But the suspicious thing is that so many of the questions are so glaring, and they were never brought up at the commission. Especially suspect are the pentagon attack, and the plane in the field. I wont go into all the details, yet what I find more telling is the utter refusal to even discuss these questions on any of the main media. As you know, our main media are controlled by a few major corporations. NBC is owned by GE. ABC is owned by Disney. I forget who owns CBS. Fox is owned by Rupert Murdoch, a fundamentalist Christian. You’ve seen how biased and slanted their stuff is. And he just bought Dow Jones ( the Wall Street Journal) so this bastion of objective (haha) reporting is gone. (Ralph Nader did praise it though, and I remember a very interesting and detailed article from years ago documenting Judge Clarence Thomas’ great love, while a college student, for pornography of women with humungous breasts. I believe Anita Hill, and the way that S.O.B. Arlene Specter, Sen. from Pennslyvia questioned her was disgraceful.) And PBS, the public broadcasting station, while good, especially when Robin McNeil was on the news hour, is so flaccid, it really is a waste of the taxpayers money.

    One thing that did make a huge impact on American opinion was the sight of Palestinians dancing in the street after hearing the news. In fact it created a vast swathe of support amongst the American evangelical community for Israel. “Christian Zionism” as its called really came on strong after that, a mentality of its us and the Jews against those child killing Muslims. Yet physical attacks on Muslims were exceedingly rare. A man who shot a gas station owner of Asian Indian descent to death, mistaking him for an Arab, was given the death penalty. Just as in WW II when German soldiers could kill and rape women and children with impunity while U.S soldiers who committed murder or rape were court martialed and shot by firing squad. I think about 200 were executed. So Americans will tolerate a lot, they’ll grumble, but they will only very rarely think of physical violence. They love law and order. Which is why war-criminal Reagan could send the Oakland police goons to beat the crap out of peaceful hippie girls during Peoples Park in Berkeley 1968, and have almost all of America, except for Berkeley, behind him — because property rights had been violated. The law had been broken. The Palestinian suicide bombers pretty much blew any residual sympathy that was left over. Another thing is Arafat’s refusal to compromise right at the end of those talks Clinton worked on so hard. Even Democrats who are critical of Israel often bring up the point that Arafat “blew it” and then they start thinking that he, and the Palestinians, weren’t really serious about peace. Outside of Michigan, where for some reason there seen to be a lot more Muslims, and Berkeley, where its chic for leftists to hate Israel, I think there’s very little support in the U.S. for the Palestinians.

    Anyway,none of these media will dare to touch any of these 9/11 questions. If someone calls in to a talk show, like KGO the very powerful San Francisco station (also on the web) with an even mix of far-left, mid-Dem, mid-Rep, a station that will talk about almost anything, if anyone calls in on 9/11,they say “Sorry, I”m not going to go there” and cut them off, and sound kinda peeved, like whoever called was an immoral nut, instead of someone with legitimate questions.

    It really pains me to see the great rift between Judaism and Islam, two religions that have had the insight to see that the worship of idols and of images, both visual and images in the mind, is the real problem. A mind free of all images, of all illusions, which being free, is then filled with G-d, and G-d is One. And, unless technological or survival problems come in, in which the mind must function in the realm of thought, (and function logically and clearly) a mind that is not constantly chattering with thought. Thought when it comes to food,clothes,shelter, but all our energy listening to the silence of G-d, at all other times. Both religions forbid images in their houses of worship.

  55. wits0 says:

    Silverfish, despite what you and Rajah say, bad as the Rep may be, I think the Dems are actually far worse, overall, today. And I don’t believe in the canard about the endless conspiracy theories either, like Kittykat46 wouldn’t.

  56. wits0 says:

    oops..Silverwolf, i.e. The Dems lost it big time since the sixties.

  57. silverwolf says:

    (continued )The period of the Moorish occupation of Spain is known as the “Golden Age” amongst the Jews for the way they were treated by the Muslims in comparison to how they were treated under the Christians. Massacres of Jews, and draconian laws that made life barely livable were common throughout the length and breadth of Europe for hundreds of years under Christianity. Under Islam, though there were discriminatory laws, massacres were comparatively rare. Jews achieved high office in the government in Persia, though they were not allowed to ride on horses. The Ottoman Turkish ruler took in and invited Jews fleeing the mounting persecution when the Christians recaptured Spain. “Their loss will be our gain,” he is reported to have said. The Ottoman Turks always seemed to have had an affinity for the Jews, and Turkey has been one to maintain comparatively strong ties with Israel. Strange too that Mauritania, an Islamic country and far from Israel, should maintain diplomatic ties. An excellect work on the subject is S.D.F. Goitein’s “Arabs and Jews” ( and its not too long).

  58. silverwolf says:

    Yes wits0 there’s a BIG difference between silverfish and silverwolf. But don’t you get it, the Reps and the Dems are the same party. There are only two parties and Rep-Dems vs the libertarians. The Republic desperately needs the libetarians to surviveand they got 1.8% of the vote last time. That is the dilemma and crisis of American democracy. Reps mean sure fascism; Dems mean sure financial chaos. Whats the alternative? Libertarian social free-market capitalism with the Bill of Rights to protect those capitalists from the government. Read the Nobel-prize winning economist F A Hayek, he was right on the money. But change most easily comes ( and non-violently comes) through economic pressure. Ghandi and King knew that. Ghandi was a capitalist in my book, though he thought he was a socialist. He showed us the awesome power of the boycott. To paraphrase the old Watts-riots chant, “Boycott, baby, boycott!”

  59. wits0 says:

    “…This second stage started an era of Moorish rulers guided by a version of Islam that left behind the tolerant practices of the past.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors

    This isn’t mentioned, eh?

  60. silverwolf says:

    No Kittykat46 pigs cant fly. But they can right propaganda, or censor your writings, or arrest you for writing a blog.

    I wanted to mention the Green Party. They’re really the proverbial snowball in hell. Their anti-capitalism and anti-Americanism goes over with the public like Woody Allen at an S.S. veterans reunion. But I almost agree with them 100% on the environment. And like the left all the world over, their favorite foreign policy theme is Israel, the “neighborhood bully”. (And I’d recommend listening to Bob Dylan’s song of that title about Israel and the middle East situation. I think its right on, though not a very musically interesting song.) They got 1.3%. The Socialists probably got a third of one percent. There’s another nut party called the Constitutional Party, that wants to bring prayer back into public school, have America declared a “Christian nation” officially, ban all abortions, etc. They talk libertarianism, but they are the remnants of the old Southern racists. Their more extreme literature will talk about the Jewish bankers who run the world, and have brought about the “crime of race mixing”. They would outlaw marriage between Caucasians and other races, shades of the Nuremburg Race Laws. They usually get 1-2%.

  61. silverwolf says:

    Yes, thanks wits0, I’ll have to dig out my Goitein and read up on that wikipedia comment about the Moors loosing their tolerance. Been 20 years since I read it. Now which one of those 700 boxes of books in the garage did I put it in?

  62. silverwolf says:

    I also forgot to point out earlier that that vision of the Palestinians and others dancing at the news of 9/11 was a big factor I think in why Americans were suddenly so silent and complicit when the Federal Police Agencies started arresting and it certainly sounds like violilating the civil rights of Arab and Muslim Americans. The fear too which said, “So what if a few, or even a lot of completely innocent people get taken in and held for a while. If they’re innocent they’ll get out fairly soon, anyway. Better to be safe than sorry.” So any legal niceties would have been completely overlooked. Remember too that the vast majority of Americans hear and care very little about foreign news. Network news TV always spent 80% of its time, and 90% of the foreign news would be the crisis de jour. In rural areas, huge numbers live in complete ignorance of what goes on in the world, as if America was on another planet. I don’t like that at all, but Americans are spoiled on violence. Outside of the veterans, they have never known what it was to be bombed or shelled. But they do have great fear of individual criminal violence, much more so in the metropolises. In the country they’re armed to the teeth, and they talk about the lack of order and crime, as if there about to be attacked, but murder is exceedingly rare in the county where I live because the trees are so beautiful, nature is all around, and all those natural fractile patterns are very soothing to the brain. It is the geometry of the architecture of modern cities, and the lack of rural vistas, that is so much responsible for the much higher level of violent crime in cities. I’m all with Bhutan for making it a crime to cut down a living tree (unless it is diseased, or a threat to human life. Also OK if your about to freeze to death). All trees are sacred.

  63. silverwolf says:

    Sorry that should have continued “Network news spent 80% of its time on U.S. news, and of the remaining 20%, 90% was the crisis de jour.”

  64. wits0 says:

    Silverwolf, I do not agree with your description of the US Rep party as “fascist”. It does not stand out to be particularly so named.

    The greatest world threat from fascism today is that islamofascism enabled through the call of ummah to unity for the purpose of confrontation with its enemies, real and imagine, and for ushering the grand delusion of world domination. This is aided by nonsensical liberal and European(useful idiots) multiculturalism and political correctness and a volcanic eruption is being built up consequently.

    The conservatives would tend to address that early ; the liberals tend to be useful idiots. Yet it’s often the later that may eventually go overboard in overreacting afterwards.

  65. silverwolf says:

    I do call Repubs fascist because it is a collectivist party now. It supports farm subsidies, it sides with the corporation against the rights of the individual like Mussolini (Italian fascism was really based on corporate socialism), it supports the death penalty, the military budget is 2/3rds waste so that is about $350 billion more of corporate welfare, and Bush’s signing of the medicare prescription benefit is a major expansion of the entitlement program that will add another 80-100 billion to the annual budget. They’re fascistic in their drug laws, in the desire to speed up death sentence executions in a country that has now found over 130 people who were on death row, to have been innocent through DNA. They talk individual rights, but they hate individual rights. They are corporate communists, i.e. fascists. But I realize fascism also has the image of the bully dictator, “the Italian jackanapes” as Churchill referred to Mussolini. The punk who got power. In that sense, no they are not quite there yet. But I do agree with you in that the Dems are worse because they are the party that should be against the death penalty. They are as liberal as Hitler’s anus. And they are the party that says to the individual, “We have the right to rob you in the name of social justice and the fact you protest shows that you are a wicked person.” Ayn Rand caught it very well in her novel, “Atlas Shrugged” although I didn’t like her contempt for poor people. When A and B get together and agree to rob C, its called a tax.

  66. Rajah says:

    “Silverwolf, I do not agree with your description of the US Rep party as “fascist”. It does not stand out to be particularly so named.” Wits0

    I think Silverwolf exaggerates that to prove a point – and he’s right in my opinion.

    Lest the FBI tracks our thoughts here (not yours Silverwolf for it does not matter to you), all I can say is that the US believes with 9/11 it has gained the moral leadership and the moral high ground in the struggle to free the world from tyranny and authoritarianism. What Americans fail to realize is that confucianism, hinduism and taosim are beliefs system more suited to the growth of authoritarianism than western style democracy.

    Malaysia under Mahathir for one has been under a form of authoritarianism referred to as benevolent authoritarianism. But from there it is but one short step towards fascism and Malaysia has been on the proverbial slippery slopes ever since.

    Towards the close of his premiership Mahathir has shaken hands with the likes of Castro and Hugo Chevez and of course Saddam after the first Gulf War – something his predecessors would never have done, right or wrong. That is how controversial the guy is and he is still at it even after stepping down.

    His worst legacy has been to appoint Abdullah as his successor. Abdullah after some four years as PM failed to provide not just the leadership required but any form of leadership.

  67. silverwolf says:

    But your right too wits0 in your perception that islamofascism is a big threat to world peace. All the stuff that Bertrand Russell wrote about Christian fanaticism in the Middle Ages in Europe, is applicable to Islamic fanaticism now. It’s as if Christianity has mellowed out a lot and improved, while Islam has descend from a higher level of tolerance and philosophical sophistication to a pretty ugly intolerance. Remember, there has never been a religious pogrom in America that I can recall, and its overwhelming religious influence is Protestant Christianity. A big change came though, when Cromwell and the Puritans made their revolution in England. One of Cromwells first acts was to permit the Jews to return to England, because the Puritans were actually philo-Semites. They were fascinated by the Old Testament, and their top scholars were eager to discuss it with the top Jewish scholars and rabbis. So the Jews, who had been so cruelly persecuted on the continent, with the exception of Holland, suddenly found themselves welcome guests among philo-Semites. However Cromwell himself could have cared less. His motive was to gain economic strength.

  68. silverwolf says:

    Oh, and if you ever get a chance, watch the movie “Cromwell” (1970) starring Richard Harris. It’s really good.

  69. silverwolf says:

    Rajah — Hinduism and Confucianism I could see possibly producing or fitting in with an authoritarian system. But Taoism? that marvelous anarchy of Lao-Tsu and Chuang-Tsu? The mountain laughter of Taoism will melt any form of fascism.

    Benevolent authoritarianism? Hahaha. It reminds me of that Orwellian doublespeak of Reagan administration abomination Jean Kirkpatrick when she made her distinction between Latin American torture dictators who were “Authoritarian” and those who were “Totalitarian”. The “authoritarian” torturers were given foreign aid.

    Yeh Chavez and Castro, another couple of scum-bags. Notice how Chavez made all those promises to help the poor, and after a few months in power he spends $4billion on new planes for the Air Fprce. In a country like Venezuala $4billion would have done a lot of good for the poor. He also just shut down the only TV station that wasn’t kissing his ass of the 3 in the country. It had been on the air for over 20 years. Then he’s feeling up Ahmenijad or whatever his name is.

    Castro, who has had a cigar in his mouth for 30 years, throws people in jail for 30 years for pot (yep). Homosexuality is illegal. If you get aids, even if your a married nurse who accidently jabbed yourself, you’ll get taken away and segregated as if you were a prostitute. And then fools who are merely anti-American, idolize these thugs just because they are against America and Bush. Yeh, even under a capitalist fascist you have more freedom than under a communist fascist. But when I compare Castro to El Salvador, Guatamala,and Nicauragua under Somoza, to Chile and Argentina under the criminals Pinochet, Galtieri and Jorge Videla, then he is nothing. Castro never murdered and tortured people physically on that scale. He just tortured them mentally with his crappy socialist bullying. He’s terrible, but nothing like Roberto D’Aubisson, Somoza, Rios-Mont of Guatamala, Hugo Banzer of Bolivia, Alfredo Stroessner of Paraguay (Nazi protector), and on and on.

  70. monsterball says:

    Look at that scumbag silverwolf talking cock….totally ignoring world’s opinions that his country ..USA is the worst devils on Earth.
    Religions…shit what does a country who try to rob other’s properties in disguised as world policeman…fair and just…knows about that.
    Their religion is MONEY…in whatever forms to rob con or and steal from others.
    Silverwolf have no shame….face like onion skin.
    Decent Americans are humble..righteous and realizes who wrong their US govt. is…here he talks about Castro….Buddhism…and mock them.
    Biggest cowards are the Americans…using all sorts of weapons to figt a battle with enemies armed with stones and old guns. Try doing that with China…their balls shrink!! What thick skinned person can talk like silverwolf…now also known as silverfish and silverfox…by his so call good friend..witsO….realising what a bloody bastard that silverwolf is. Never too late to learn…witsO.
    Get lost silverwolf…..go back to your satanic country and teach your kind how great other cultures and people are away from USA….that is if your eyes are not blind….and your brain is not a pea.

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